Actually, you were getting bashed because you said: 1. Yao can't play D 2. Yao's D sucks 3. Yao has NO D Granted you already apologized for that and have retracted your statement. But you said you were being bashed for "no reason" so I was just reminding you of why you were being bashed.
Damn I had to go a couple of pages back when I said this, but Yao had the higher rebounding avg Im not disputing that but my argument was judging their performance on the court. Both had high reb rates and its the ultimate stat on deciding whos the better rebounder. But considering its only a .1 difference I guess it would be nitpickin to say Shaq is the much better rebounder. They are about equal though Shaq knows how to work on the offensive boards better. Consider that if Yao were to up his Offensive rebounding numbers he would avg 2-4 more ppg and then hed add another dominant trait to his game. Offensive rebounds are widely considered among coaches/analyst to be the more important rebound. Offensive rebounds are much harder and rarer to collect because defensive rebounding is much more dominant. Theres a reason its worth .7 on the PER ratings, and a defensive rebound is worth a .3 Nah when did I mention fg% now bein worthy. If your talkin about the Brad and Z argument then its more impressive when measure against those 2 because they are offensive centers but Its always relevant. So you can use it against shaq but if your gonna look at that then you must look at the whole picture which is what mfw didnt. Yao gives up more points per 40 and allows the higher PER.
Actually, rebounding rate and rebounding percentages are much better inidcators of how good a rebounder you are. Rebounds per game is actually the shallow stat here, because it does not take into consideration the speed and pace of the game. Faster pace = more shots = more potential rebounds. A player who grabs 10 out of a possible 20 rebounds is much better than a player who grabs 11 out of a possible 30 rebounds. I agree. All rebounds are equally important.
An offensive rebound almost directly leads to 2 pts and has a higher success rate than a defensive rebound possession. Thats why they are considered more valuable.
I'm happy for Yao. He deserved and rightfully earned this accomplishment. I don't know why but I see greatness in Yao. Something about him. He reminds of me of Dream so DAMN much it's scary. They are both humble, yet have the perfect amount of confidence to know they are THAT good. I hope Tracy was the first to call him and tell him... "Good @#$%ing job BIG man..."
For a given player, an offensive rebound is more valuable than a defensive rebound. If I don't grab a defensive board on a given possession, chances are one of my teammates would. That's not the case for offensive rebounding.
The best rebounders in the game are the ones who grab the highest percentage of available rebounds while they're on the court. That's fairly obvious. Is Juwan Howard a better rebounder than Chuck Hayes simply because he averaged more rebounds a game? Rebounds per game (like all per game metrics) is an overrated stat. I'd argue that even Rebound-Rate isn't quite as useful, since it doesn't distinguish between offensive and defensive rebounding.
I disagree. An offensive rebound may be rarer to get but it is not neccessarily more valuable than a defensive rebound. Offensive rebounds give you a second chance, defensive rebounds stop them from having a second chance. If you really want to talk success rates.... 90% success of a put back vs 100% success of denying the other team points. At the very least, both rebounds are of equal value, but I know that as a coach, I would rather have my player grab 15 defensive and no offensive than the other way around.
I have to disagree; the best rebounders in the game are the ones who get the most rebounds. In term of this argument it did not give Shaq any advantage having .1 more in the rebounding rate if he didn't get more rebounds than Yao. Yao got a total of 581 rebounds and Shaq got a total of 541 rebounds despite playing two more games than Yao. Total Rebounds This is why I feel the rebounding rate statistic should not be the be-all, end-all.
If you want to know "who got the most rebounds for his team?", than you look at total rebounds. But, for a coach or GM, that's not very useful. What they're interested in is who will have the biggest impact on the boards while they're in the game. For that, rebound-rate is much more useful than rebounds-per-game, not to mention total rebounds. 82games actually shows the true offensive rebounding% and defensive rebounding% while a player is on the court. That's even more useful, in my opinion (there's no good reason to combine the two, since an offensive rebound and defensive rebound accomplish two very different things). Offensive Rebounding Code: OffReb OffRebChances OffRebPct. Yao 148 1776 8.3% Shaq 172 1590 10.8% Defensive Rebounding Code: DefReb DefRebChances DefRebPct. Yao 433 1931 22.4% Shaq 369 1764 20.9% Shaq was much better on the offensive boards, while Yao was better on the defensive boards. The effective rebounding percentage (if you care about overall rebounding) would then just be: Code: Effective Rebounding% = (OffRebPct. + DefRebPct.) / 2 Yao's ER% = 15.4% Shaq's ER% = 15.8% As I said above, I believe an offensive rebound does have more "value" than a defensive rebound. So, if we wanted to determine which player brings more value to his team via his rebounding, I think it would certainly be Shaq.
You're not taking into account that defensive rebounds aren't contested as much by the opponent as an offensive rebound. What this means is that being a good offensive rebounder tends to help the team's overall rebounding more than being a good defensive rebounder. Evidence to support this claim is discussed here. Of course, different team contexts will change the relative to value of defensive and offensive rebounds. For what it's worth, here's the on-court/off-court impact on team rebounding for Yao and Shaq (from 82games.com): Code: OffReb% +/- DefReb% +/- TotReb% +/- Yao -3.7% +3.6% -0.0% Shaq -0.3% +2.8% +1.2%
You are certainly entitiled to your opinion. As stated previously I don't base my opinion on rates, or what could be if 48 minutes were played but on the results themselves. I base my opinion on who is a better rebounder similar to way it was determined that Dwight Howard was the winner of the rebounding title because he had the most rebounds of anybody in the league. Efficiency and impact is great and all but in my opinion that is not how a better rebounder is determined.
Who would come into the game when Yao or Shaq rested? Mutombo: 15.5 rbs/48 mins Mourning: 13.2 rbs/48 mins Mourning is no joke in the rebounding department but Mutumbo is still, IMO, one of the top 3 rebounders in the league if he is only asked to play 12 mins/game. And, according to the stats on 82games.com which you guys love so much: Mutombo: Off rb % = 11.6% Def rb % = 22.5% Mourning: Off rb % = 10.3% Def rb % = 17.4% The simple fact that Yao's backup is a better rebounder unfavourably impacts his on-court/off-court impact numbers. And then you can further argue that JVG's defensive strategy is to make everyone crash the defensive board (I think it is good strategy though). So Yao has to 'compete' with his teammates for the defensive boards unlike the big men in the other teams who usually take all the uncontested defensive rebounds. And I am sure you can think of other factors which can be used to argue in favour of Shaq too. My point is you can always argue against this kind of statistical analysis by bringing in other factors. Sooner or later the arguement will become pointless. *yawn*
So in your oppinion that would meen Juwan Howard is a better rebounder than Chuck Hayes and Dikembe Mutumbo right.
Your not serious are you? If a player were to get 15 offensive rebounds that essentially meens 15 extra possessions and most likely 30 extra pts. Whereas a defensive rebound meens 15 possessions and in all likelyhood about half the pts, and the chances are much higher that if you dont get the defensive rebound your teammate would doesnt hold true for offensive rebound.
Actually, the team rebounds worse with Mutombo in the game than with Yao. So, that argument doesn't work. Not sure why you're making this point, when its offensive rebounding where Shaq has the edge, not defensive rebounding. You picked out one thing I said, and ignored the rest. Note that I prefixed that last part with "for what it's worth". It wasn't a major part of my argument. Their effective rebounding percentage is roughly the same (slight edge to Shaq), but Shaq was a much better offensive rebounder. Further, there is strong evidence that offensive rebounding is more valuable than defensive rebounding. Therefore, it makes sense to say that Shaq's rebounding is probably more valuable than Yao's over all. Next season could be a different story, since Shaq is getting older and Yao is on an upward trend.
I also base my opinion on who is a better rebounder. The issue at hand is what does it mean to be the better rebounder. Dwight Howard happened to lead the league in rebounds per game. That doesn't make him the best rebounder in the game. Is Juwan Howard a better rebounder than Chuck Hayes? By your definition, he would be, which is preposterous. If a coach wanted better rebounding on the floor, he's not going to prefer Juwan Howard to Chuck Hayes. That's how coaches, scouts, GMs determine it. Your definition is only suitable for fantasy leagues.
Chuck Hayes is a more EFFICIENT rebounder than Juwon Howard. But that in itself doesn't make him a better rebounder over him or anybody else. His height, foul trouble, defensive efficiencies, and matchup problems keep him from realizing himself into one of the better rebounders. Chuck Hayes rebounding rate is 19.6 according to your definition/terms he is Garnett's equal in rebounding. To me that's just wrong because Kevin Garnett can actually stay on the floor. So is Chuck Hayes a better rebounder than say Ben Wallace (19.0)?
We are disagreeing on that very exact thing ... on what it means to be the better rebounder. We can agree to disagree on this because your view is not superior to mine and vice versa. You consider efficient rebounding to equal to a better rebounder and I don't. To me it's only what it is ... efficiency and thats it...nothing more. Just a component to consider but not the be all, end all. Regarding Dwight Howard: If leading the league in rebounding totals for the season not make a player a better rebounder over anyone I don't know what does. Anyway I'm through with this topic ... there's nothing else for me to contribute ... I've said my peace and voiced a different point of view to you and Chronz.
