RoctetMac, if you have read my previous comments on this issue, my opinion was that Yao had a better season than Shaq, although Shaq getting the 1st team is understandable since you could put an argument for it. Wallace on the other hand got a good amount of his votes purely based on past performances/reputations. I might have to remind you that this is a Houston Rockets board. You can argue for Shaq all you want, but calling the team's legitimate star player a sissy and a joke of a player is not going to win you agreements or liking as a new poster. -G'day-
Shaq's FG% is first in the league, of course his scoring efficiency will be high. I never denied that. You're ripping down a straw man, not my actual argument. If you're going to say that 17.5 < 17.6 proves that Shaq is a better rebounder than Yao, then you aren't thinking about what the stats actually mean. They are an AVERAGE. Each day Yao and Shaq won't rebound at that rate, they'll rebound something around that. Let's say the standard deviation of the difference between their rebounding rates is 1. So, the difference of the data is .1, and if we do a confidence test, the test statistic is .1, which fails any reasonable confidence test. In fact, it wouldn't pass a 30% confidence test, while most confidence tests are 95% by tradition. This means that one cannot conclude that there is any difference between Yao and Shaq's rebounding rates. If you have no idea what I just said, go read a statistics textbook. Sure, the Heat won more games than the Rockets, but I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is the All-NBA award, not the MVP award. It's for INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE. How many times do idiots like you and foolish voters need to be reminded of that fact?
Great argument. You do realize that the All-Defensive Team is just an award voted on by people who may or may not have even bothered to look at the facts, right? And please, don't bother bringing up the point that those voters are the coaches and then insisting that they must be right, there's something called an Appeal to Authority fallacy. Even people involved in the league can make stupid judgements, or be ignorant of statistical evidence. For example, last year, the so-called best coach in the NBA Larry Brown even said that lay ups should be worth 3 pts while 3pt shots should be worth 2, because layups were harder. This year, guys like Steve Kerr have claimed that Chris Kaman was the 2nd best center, and Bill Walton actually gave Nenad Krstic an All-NBA 2nd Team vote. So knowing how to play the game doesn't mean you always know what you're talking about. Defense is one of the hardest things to measure, and reputation (deserved or not) plays a big part in the voting. There's also the fact that Wallace is a noted shotblocker, stealer, and rebounder, all of which plays a part in the All-Defensive voting (and I have no problem with these things being counted). However, those things do NOT mean that he's particularly good at man defense.
Other NBA centers are guarding the SAME scrubby centers that Yao does, but they give up more points and on higher FG%. And a couple games where Yao got lit up doesn't mean anything. Everyone gets lit up from time to time. It's the average that matters.
2nd team All-NBA. Defensive Player of the Year. They're trying to give Wallace a Bill Russell type resume here, goodness. I do believe he's an excellent defender though. His leaping and timing to block shots is phenomenal. And he pitches in on steals. Pretty good accomplishments for a former power forward. Go ahead and give it to him I guess if its about the team record.. It shouldnt come as a surprise Yao is 3rd team. Different voting but couldnt even give Tmac the All-Star MVP in his home building and everyone was trying to help him get it, with all the tough times he was going through. Once the West lost I just knew they were gonna find a way to shaft him cuz of their disappointing season record and all the controversy that him and Yao started cuz of overseas votes...That treatment was gonna trickle over to Yao even afterward. On the brightside, Yao by far got the most 1st place votes of anyone on the 3rd team and 7th most overall. And he's the West's best center I know they're awarding personal and team success (Rasheed Wallace got a 1st team vote ) but i'm not on that Chauncey Billups 2nd team thing. These sports people like to go one some kinda story and then all the others just follow along with it.. Gilbert Arenas 3rd team behind him just shouldnt be. I don't even think Washington has as good a season they do if Chauncey's on their team instead of Arenas. Also, I'd go Shawn Marion over Tim Duncan. Maybe its a tossup based on stats but Duncan's play dipped a little and its other players on his team that stepped up. Marion's play stepped up BIG this season without Amare (as others on the Suns admittedly did in their system). That same system gets Nash the MVP though, yet Marion gets 3rd team to Duncan's 2nd and doesnt reward him
I just checked, and I seem to have made a mistake. The All-Defensive Teams are voted on by the coaches, and the DPOY is voted on by the sportswriters. This only makes that award even more questionable.
hey man, I agree with u.. experts are stupid sometimes.. but I think they got this one right.. u cant deny that B.Wallace is a great defender (if not, he shouldn't be in the NBA because he sux big time)... B.Wallace is the best defender in the league for big men.. but he cant do anything else.. I am not arguing that Ben Wallace deserves 2nd team, he obviously doesn't (I hate Ben Wallace and I hate the whole Pitons team, I dont know how Ben Wallace is an allstar and how is he in 2nd team)... I've said it earlier, Ben is a joke for 2nd team.. Yao got ripped on this one.. Yao should've been 2nd team and even 1st team ... I love Yao's game.. I admire his personality.. dont get me wrong y'all. .and I am not a Yao hater... it's just that I've been a Shaq fan for a long time and I have a lot of respect for the guy, that's why I think he deserves 1st team.. Yao might have played better this season and he deserves 1st team, I've argued a lot of his D and everything, but well, I am gonna be straight up, Yao is a great player, he had a great season, I am a big fan of Yao, I dont have a problem with him.. but I just dont want Shaq to feel bad that a young developing center is better than him.. a big part of that is KOBE.. I just want Shaq to be first team just to screw up Kobe because I hate him .. I hate him big time... I want Kobe to regret what he did.. I want everybody to respect Shaq to show Kobe that Shaq is a great player and Kobe is a stupid A$$.. in the end, nobody cares about 1st team ****, it doesn't make anything.. it's just a stupid thing that goes on the player's profile.. if u believe Yao had a better season, then that's it, u shouldn't care about those MoFu's who chose 1st team and second team... (I kinda believe that, I actually think they had a too damn similar seasons, they had very similar seasons if u look at the numbers, maybe Yao has a lil edge) Tracy was the MVP of the all star game hadn't the stupid Lebron fouled him and they didn't call it, but it didn't change anything.. and I hate LeBron ever since... once again, dont get me wrong, I am not trying to bash Yao.. I am not trying to give excuses, I am not trying to prove my points, I just think that Shaq deserved that honor before he retired (well, as if it's a great honor or something).. I was really harsh and kinda stupid in my arguments.. I gave a wrong Idea of myself that I hate Yao ... I apologize for that guys..and lets reach an agreement here...
hey man, u r probably right.. I went too far in talking crap about Yao.. once again, I apologize.. I just HAVE SO MUCH RESPECT FOR SHAQ, and i get mad when people just go in and start defending Yao just because he is Yao.. it's alright to have a debate, a conversation... I believe that Yao is a great player, probably the best center right now, but all I was trying to say is : he deserves 1st team on his recent play, but they didn't pick him just to make sure that it's not a fluke (and I know for a fact it's not) and to respect Shaq.. but after I said that, people attacked me and started bashing Shaq, wtf ?? Why would u talk crap about one of the greatest centers in the NBA history ?? that's right, he had a bad season, but he was still the best center in the NBA for the most part of the season until Yao came back from the surgery and had his magical improvement..
another thing is, I didn't go crazy and talk crap until people pissed me off by talkin crap about SHaq and saying that Yao is better rebounder/ defender/ other stuff and crap like that.. they started giving me stupid stats to prove that he had a better season... GUYS, I TAKE EVERYTHING BAD I SAID ABOUT YAO. AND I APOLOGIZE FOR ANY INAPROPRIATE LANGUAGE I USED .. now, will I get some love from the members ??
well I didn't ,.. I would never do something like that.. I was just mad and i had to say something sorry fa7999..
Any Basketball Fan, with a true sense of the game, that watched the play of the Rockets, especially since Yao Mings return from the TOE injury, will agree that Yao Ming is now a better all round player than Shaq is. For the ones that follow the big man game, it was obvious that the mantle has left Shaq and is now on the shoulders of Yao Ming!!
too late man, your name already on many people 's **** list. You just join this club and made so many blatand comments. This is bad. One thing you really piss me off is that you keep saying YAO ingury is good luck and SHAQ'S is bad luck. What the hell is this? Go back to read A interview from DEL Harris, you will know how bad YAO's Toe was! But it's true that YAO and Shaq are pretty much on the same level: Shaq is almost a pure low post player, thus provide good spacing for rest of HEATs team. YAO has longer range shooting but double-team becomes more effective on him.
That's the irony of it all: Ben Wallace isn't a great man on man defender. You can't just buy into the hype ESPN constantly feeds you, the statistics show it and watching Detroit shows it. Ben Wallace opponent's PER ("The PER sums up all a player's positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player's performance.") average is 17.4, compared to 11.6 for Yao Ming. That is a MONUMENTAL difference. I would say he is a better team defender than Yao and Shaq, but being surrounded by Rasheed and Tayshaun Prince certainly doesn't hurt.
I didn't say that.. I said Shaq had bad luck the whole season, and Yao had his share of bad luck too, but he got a break in the end of the season and improved a lot.. see the problem is many people are misuderstanding me here.. I dont think it's their problem, i think it's my problem, I need to work on my writing skills.. that's all I am trying to say.. u got me right this time..the two players had awfully similar seasons, almost identical..but Shaq's name and team success (he has D-wade, I know) gave him 1st team.. u made a great point here, but have u noticed that we are not take advantage of Yao's midrange shooting ? I think JVG should run some plays for Yao.. I would like to see him shooting that midrange shot more frequently..
Damn you need to calm the *** down, because I dont agree with what you say doesnt make me an idiot. And its dumbasses like you who need to realize that bigmen go by different standards in the nba than other players. Due to the fact that bigmen have a much greater influence on team success is the reason why their performance is based on more than numbers and seein as how both have VERY comparable statistics its hard to say Yao has had a better season than the guy who has consistantly made his team a contender, which is what Ive been sayin from the begining. Shaq is still the better rebounder untill yao proves otherwise. If your the genious you claim to be then surely you realize the importance of rebounding and how much more valuable an offensive rebound is over a defensive rebound and yet with all of the shots our team misses Yao still cant manage to grab more boards than shaq this combined with his higher reb rate leaves me to the conclusion that Shaq still knows how to rebound. Also you speak like you know how the nba works and how legacys are made, im sorry but the facts you speak of simply do not exist. Please tell me the last time a C made the 1st team with stats so comparable to who he is competing with. To be honest with you I would be more impressed if Yao put up these scoring numbers with another dominant offensive player like Tmac beside him. So again calm the *** down Im not here to give you a reason to spread your hate across the internet but Im all for debating but if you want to continualy clown on me for not agreein wit you then dont expect another reply.
Seriously if you want to prove me wrong and that Yao is bein robbed then the only way to do it is to show me the last time a Center who missed the playoffs still managed to make the 1st team over a guy who made the playoffs with stats this close. How can Yao be robbed of anything if this is the way it has worked for as long as its been around, they dont award you for losing unless you have significantly greater statistics. Heres the hypothetical Yao had a 30 win season but put up 25 and 11 and the C who made the playoffs had 19 and 8. If these were the circumstances then you would have a point of Yao bein robbed but Yao didnt display enough of a dominance to overlook Shaqs wins.
Only Yao hasnt gaurded many of the centers Ben did. If Yao had these statistics over an average of 80 games like Big Ben did then I would be more impressed. Keep in mind the slow pace we play at and the limited offensive oppertunity the other teams center may get. And that Ben gaurded Shaq 3-4 times this year another thing helpin Yao out is that he doesnt have to gaurd himself surely goin up against Yao is goin to lower your statistic. But seriously Yao is the better man defender I dont argue that, its hard to score on 7"5 but bein the better man defender doesn necessarily meen your the better defender.
