Mitch Williams was beloved in Philly for his personality, not his play. As a closer, he was always a bit erratic and somewhat of a question mark. It's different when you've closed out two pennants/World Series. Also, throwing out W-L records for pitchers, are you kidding me? Before tonight, he was 2-for-2 in World Series saves with a 3.18 ERA (including perfect last year). Not sure what he is after tonight, haven't seen updated numbers, but you'll have a hard time making the case that he hasn't pitched well in the World Series. It was every bit as hard to bank on it before tonight, given his awful regular season, which was one of the worst for any reliever (not just closer) in baseball, period. If anything, Lidge's postseason (including tonight) has actually been encouraging for his future with the Phillies. Didn't give up a single run in either of the first two rounds, and he looked nasty tonight before running into the heart of one of the best lineups in MLB history. That said, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I know whether we'll see the old Lidge back for a full season. I just take issue with the implication by some folks that he's not "clutch", which implies that his abilities shrink in bigger games. Considering he has the second-most playoff saves in MLB history, that's ridiculous. He just happens to be wildly inconsistent, sometimes on the biggest stage, and sometimes against the Brewers in April. It has absolutely nothing to do with pressure, media, fans or any of that nonsense. He just goes through periods where he's simply not that great... which has been pretty much all of 2009, save the NLDS and NLCS.
He also has a 1.80 ERA in 15 LCS appearances, a 1.42 ERA in 11 LDS appearances, and a 3.18 ERA in five World Series appearances, if you take out one game. Yes, what a consistently miserable bum.
Cat, I don't follow baseball threads that closely here. What's your deal with Lidge, why do you have a man crush on him? Any specific reason?
Cat, his updated numbers are 2-4 now in the playoffs and while reg season ball Id agree W-L numbers are overblown in the playoffs not so much. He has had some remarkable postseason success but also devastating failure and you can't just take out one game off his record specially considering at that time it was the most important game in Astros history. Last night, as much you don't think its fair, we only add to his legacy in this case bad. I really think if he had gotten out of 9th last night and the Phillies had won the game along with a continued strong post-season he would have been ok. With Brad it is all mental, the guy has DEVASTATING stuff but seems to lose it maybe its focus or poise I don't know not a pyschologist or anything yet how do you explain his sudden greatness once he left Houston? Fans have nothing to do with Brad's performance, that I agree, but they do have a say in who goes or stays in some instances and his WS performance isn't all that great 0-3 now with an ERA over 4. The Philly media has already begun to forget last year as evidence by below: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports...he_moment_we_all_feared__Lidge_implosion.html The moment we all feared: Lidge implosion
i'm guessing the yanks find a way to get it done tonight against lee. smart move throwing aj tonight.
as far as tonight, it would be beautiful to see them do it. But an elimination game is the hardest thing to do. especially at someones home field. I'm hoping the yanks do it, but wouldn't be surprised to see it come back to New York for game six. But that would be cool too! Yanks get to celebrate in the new stadium.
He's a Lidge fan that believes that it is injuries that have caused him to suck, and that he has never had a mental problem.
If you want to look at the entirety of his postseason legacy, it's 16 saves (second-most in postseason history) to one blown save, including two pennant-clinching closeouts and a World Series-clinching save. W-L record for pitchers is always, always, always irrelevant - especially with relievers. No, it's not mental AT ALL. That's the thing. How do I explain his sudden greatness once he left Houston? He had two knee surgeries, and wasn't walking on one leg. His mechanical issues from 2006 were fixed, and led to him having a great season in 2007 in Houston until his knee went out, and he reverted to old habits. This year, mechanics were bad from the get go, and to no surprise, his knee was acting up again. The thing is, he doesn't have devastating stuff, as a whole. Sure, the slider is filthy when it's on. But his fastball is good not great (not enough movement), and in general, it's hard to be consistently dominant off two pitches. Any pitcher will tell you that from time to time, he'll lose control of one of his pitches. It's the nature of the beast. Oswalt has games where his curve is filthy, others where he can't control it for the life of him. But when that happens to Lidge, he's in trouble, because batters know what's coming. Essentially, that's what happened last night. When Damon reached third, I knew what would happen. Lidge couldn't risk the slider getting away, so A-Rod sat FB... and he got one. It's a good pitch for Lidge, but not a great one, and if a batter knows it's coming... especially one like A-Rod... good chance it's getting hit hard. It's nothing to do with mental. He's just not that good sometimes. Fans don't have anything to do with who goes/stays except in amateur organizations like the Astros and Drayton McLane. And as silly as it is to take six appearances as a legitimate sample size (especially when five of them were very good), why in the world would you plan your team for the World Series? Why does the 1.80 LCS ERA and 1.42 LDS ERA (both larger sample sizes, too) become irrelevant? Also, if you read the article and not just headline, you'll see some perspective that you rarely see in the Houston media (the Houston media, for baseball, is incredibly ignorant, by the way). Yes, Lidge had a rough outing last night and so there will be columns about it. But what you don't see in that article is an implication that his career is over, that he'll never be the same, that he "choked", that he can't handle pressure. You see actual baseball analysis, and you see that many of the problems he had last night were identical to the "little games" of the regular season. Whether Lidge makes it back to being an elite closer with the Phillies will have about 100X more correlation with their evaluation of his regular season performance than it will last night, that I can guarantee.
When you say that W-L is irrelevant but you keep throwing out 16 saves, like saves are a much more relevant statistic, you sound ridiculous. As if entering a tie game and giving up 4 runs is meaningless, but saving a game with a 1, 2, or 3 run lead is sooo meaningful. A "pennant-clinching closeout" in a 10 - 4 game isn't exactly a pressure situation. Lidge's postseason ERA is now 5.40, which is in line with his 7.21 ERA in the regular season. He's like the saying goes - when he's good, he's very good, but when he's bad, he's awful.
John Kruk is melting down about this series. He was pissed that the umpires called A-Rod's homerun a homerun and now he thinks the Yankees aren't really a good team but their opponents are just not playing well. Hey Kruk, your tears, they sustain me.
When I covered the Astros in 2007, it became a pet peeve of mine to watch media and fans (particularly media, since they knew what was going on) throw Lidge under the bus for his struggles in August and September, when every day in the clubhouse (before AND after games), you'd see him hopping on one leg and with a gigantic ice pack from his calf to his thigh. (Think how Owen Daniels looked yesterday.) And the thing is, he was absolutely dominant in the 2007 season until the knee flared up. Lights out, so to speak. It was obvious to anyone with a pulse what happened to him, but that wasn't a "sexy" enough story for media/fans, so they went with their pre-established biases and made him out to be a headcase. If you look back at my posts from 2006, I used to have concerns over Lidge's mental issues as well. But things changed once I got in the clubhouse and watched what was going on. The truth is, he's just not a consistent pitcher. He's had a number of injury issues all throughout his career, and the 2006 WBC completely ****ed with his mechanics for that entire season. And when you only throw two pitches, no matter how great they are, your margin for error is microscopic. I'm definitely not in love with the guy, I have no qualms in admitting that his 2009 was one of the worst for a closer in the history of the game. I just think, given all the evidence we have, that dismissing him as a "headcase" or a big-game choke artist is silly.
i won't call him a headcase but i don't think he's mentally as tough as other closers. look at mariano rivera, his stuff is not nearly as dominant as it was but he still manages to get the job done more often than not.
Saves are largely within Lidge's control. Sure, there's defense, but by and large, they measure whether he shut the door when he had the opportunity. Wins and losses do not measure this. For starters, Lidge typically comes in with a lead, where there isn't a chance to post a win - so a W-L mark for relievers is inherently skewed toward more losses. Second, if he strikes out Damon last night, whether he gets a "win" is completely out of his control and depends on whether the Phillies can get a run against Rivera (not likely). If you can't see that saves-BS are much more within a pitcher's control than W-L record, I don't know what to say. That's just ridiculous.
Maybe winning the game wasn't within Lidge's control, but losing certainly was. Coming into a tie game and giving up a run, much less 3 runs, directly earns you a L. It's not ridiculous, and it's not meaningless. Just like coming into the 9th inning in a tie game in Game 2 of the 2005 World Series and giving up a run earned him a loss, and giving up a run in a tie game in the 8th inning of Game 4 of that same series earned him a loss. Those weren't out of his control, and they were all meaningful, and not at all reflected in your Save - Blown Save metric.
I get what your saying Cat but come on...to say injuries not mental issues cause Brad to implode in certain circumstances is just protecting the guy. I know you covered the guy and all but to say its NOTHING mental is ridiculous because everyone can see the guys emotions and body language along with the fustration he shows when he struggles. We obivously disagree on Wins and Losses because look back at every loss he has given up... NLCS game 5...Gives up a hit, WALKS Edmonds and Pujols explodes on him...how is this not his fault? WS game 2...Gives up game winning HR...how is this not his fault? WS game 4...Gives up game winning single..how is this not his fault? WS game 4(2009)...Gives up single to Damon, and double to AROD...How is this not his fault? He has done some great things and been as dominant as any reliever I've ever seen but to blow his bad outing due to injury is an easy way out.
Who said it's not his fault? There's no such thing as perfection, otherwise relievers would be walking around with ERAs of 0.00. The problem is this bizarre belief you seem to have that if anything doesn't go well, the problems are all in his head. Believe it or not, there are plenty of great hitters (particularly Pujols and ARod), and sometimes, you can do everything exactly right, and they're still going to make things happen. No one's saying it's not his fault. He's a very flawed pitcher, partly due to injuries. The other part is largely due to mechanical issues, which tend to have a greater impact on him than the average pitcher due to his lack of diversity in pitches. Make no mistake, it's on him. But it's not a situation where he can "will" a pitch past ARod in that spot. Sometimes you just aren't good enough, period.
Do you not understand the enormous difference in proportion here? In the save-blown save metric, you listed three situations that aren't included. Add them to the 17 save opps, and that's 20 occasions. The save-blown save metric doesn't include 15% of them. Meanwhile, coming with a statement like Lidge is now 2-4 in the postseason, if we use that same figure of 20, doesn't include 70% of them. Neither of these statistics is perfect and all-encompassing, and I never claimed that it was. But the save-blown save metric is much, much more telling than W-L, and it's not even close.
I was watching the Yankees earlier this postseason and i thought about this argument you make. Why, do you think, Mariano Rivera is so successful with 1 pitch if Lidge struggles due to his lack of diversity of pitches by having only 2?
