Refman, You're talking about a time when the side headlock was a finishing move. Back in myyyyyy day... Benoit is a joke to listen to. His mic work makes me cringe most of the time - especially with the missing teeth and the spit shooting between his existing ones. The fact he's a little stumpy fire hydrant doesn't help either. He's a great wrestler, though, no doubt. But if I wanted great wrestling, I'd go watch greco-roman wrestling or something. I want a combination of both. You are right in that some of the best wrestling maneuvers are gone from the game, but Chris loses out big on the mic work. Nowadays I just tune in for the storylines anyway and to be honest even those are lame. Chris as a champion pulling the WWE? I don't see it. He's best suited in the role of a henchman in an organization such as the Four Horseman, NWO, or somesuch. As the lead guy, he just doesn't seem to fit. Crap, here I am talking rasslin' seriously... rasslin' sucks and it's fake and only rednecks watch it... there. I'm safe now.
You attacked my understanding of the product. Sports entertainment depends a lot more on marketable personalities than sound wrestling.
Especially when Shawn Michaels is consistently getting the biggest crowd reactions in the company, and is every bit the sound worker that Benoit is. Agree with everthing else the good doctor said as well.
Actually it sounds to me like Jericho is getting just as loud a reaction as HBK, and he's stuck in a midcard feud (albeit a good one, and Jericho had to come up with it) with Christian. As for Benoit, I like him. I know wrestling's fake, but I like how he makes everything LOOK good, and is always crisp with transitions, moves, even restholds. Just about every other wrestler has had nights where for one reason or another seems to be missing something. Not Benoit. He brings it every night. Plus he has improved on the stick a great deal since his WCW days. Will he ever be Mr. Charisma? Nope, but he doesn't need to. Go out, kick someone's ass, rinse repeat. Works for me more than interminable 20 minute interviews about how great you are *cougHHHcough*.
And you wonder why I questioned your understanding. HBK is a shell of his former self. His ring work is good, but half the time he looks like his old self in slow motion. HBK of today is NOT as good a ring worker as Benoit. It takes a lot more than a superkick and a good blade job to call yourself a ring worker.
Preposterous. I'll take HBK at 50% over anyone on the roster not named Kurt Angle. It takes more than a couple of chops and german suplexes to call yourself a good worker. Bah, I'm done with WWE for the time being. Someone post when Vince wakes up and the charismatic workers get the spotlight back.
Judging by the way some of you talk about wrestling, you are all wrestling bandwagon jumpers of '98. Chris Benoit and Eddie Gurrerro are perhaps two of the best champions WWE has had in some time. Lesnar was a waste of talent with so much potential. Instead of learn from Kurt Angle and the Rock he let the WWE title go to his head. As for other past champions... Honestly do we want to see Taker, or Big Show, or god forbid Hulk Hogan or Ric Flair win the titles again. Hell even Triple H and Booker T are lame workers. Triple H is a waste of talent sometimes too... He only steps it up in the ring when he is in there with Shawn or Benoit.... His matches with Booker T and Kevin Nash and Scot Steiner were by far some of the worst matches in the history of the company which is one of the reasons Raw sucked so much in 2003. Eddie Gurrero and Chris Benoit are the Bret Hart and Mr. Perfect of today.... They bring some authenticity to the product some of the wacky story lines worked to bring people in but what people really want to see is good matches that keep you on the edge of their seat. For those of you dogging Benoit....Do you watch his matches? Did you not see the Kurt Angle v. Chris Benoit from the Royal Rumble in 2003.... One fo the best matches of the last 5 years... The Stone Cold v. Benoit v. Jericho Matches from 2001 were amazing.... Benoit's recent matches with Trips and Michaels equally stunning... It is like were watching Bret Hart all over again only younger and more athletic than Bret ever was. As for Eddie he is perhaps the new Ricky Steamboat... He can wrestle you... He can chop you...he can make you submit... he can go to the top.... It is too bad that Eddie can be wrestling matches with Benoit because that match would be amazing. Please dont give me the crap that they can't talk on the Mic..... Austin dindt become great on the Mic till he came to WWE.. The Rock please... he spent hours upon hours working on his promos before they became off the cuff..... Give it up guys Austin is gone... The Rock is making movies.... embrace the new guys... especially since they are probably some of the most talented guys and guys that genuinely love what they are doing.... Eddie and Chris are both family guys in real life and spend a lot more time signing autographs after shows than their counterparts... Eddies Mic Skills are improving and so are Benoits.... the reason they stink is because they never spole in WCW.. they were never allowed too... So all you guys wising for hell in the cell/table matches with lots of blood and high spots... to make the match exciting for you need to get a life... The futute of Professional Wrestling is guys like Eddie and Benoit.... guys with amateur background like Angle, Benjamin, and Haas, and guys with a genuine love of the business like Cena, Edge, and Jericho.... Not everyone can be Flair and put on great matches and cut great promos.... Steamboat never cut good promos....Luger never did... heck Stings sucked too.... Dusty Rhodes did the same one every time... Hogan did to only nobody noticed.... Taker did the same one for a decade and when he stopped doing it cut really lame ones...Yet all of these guys are considered in some respects legends in the ring.... Go watch backyard wrestling... because I like the fact that tru ring technichians possess the torch right now in Sports Entertainment...
Al22ex -- Despite the shaky grammar, that is probably the best post about pro wrestling that I have read on this BBS.
Thanks Sorry I wrote the post at like 3 Am... But I probably should pay more attention to putting together a much more redable post. I am glad you feel that it was a good post.
Eddie Guerrero has ALWAYS been awesome. I do miss the mullet, though. Benoit I could take or leave. He's a great worker, but he still can't talk. It's nice to have him as champ for a change of pace, though. Triple H is way played out. Cena had some real superstar potential a few months ago, but he's killed off nearly all of his momentum by turning face too soon. His edge is totally gone and his raps have gone downhill. The stupid "deez nutz" catchphrase is coming about 5 years too late. I'm happy Edge is back, though. He and Christian were a total riot back in the day when the hung out with Angle. I was sad to see that team go.
Awesome post...very well said (despite the typos ). I could write about the history of pro wrestling and use that to show why ring work and workrate is so important, but I really don't have the time. Thanks for a great post.
This is where I disagree. The WWE champ has to have charisma or a schtick that transcends "mere mortals" - he has to be a level up. Hogan had it, the Rock had it, Randy Savage had it, Mankind/Mick Foley had it, Kane had it, Andre the Giant had it, Billy Graham had it, Undertaker had it, Shawn Michaels had it, Steve Austin had it, Ric Flair had it, etc. Many of these guys' ring work admittedly sucked, however. There are others like Benoit that I don't think had it - Bob Backlund comes to mind. They won't pull a company without a good storyline whereas the Hogans, Rocks, and Savages of the world helped save and put the industry on the map. Oh, and yeah, I've been following RASSLIN' since the 70's watching Houston Wrestling and Paul Boesch's cauliflower ears. I remember watching the Rock's dad wrestle. I remember when a Jose Lothario could actually draw a crowd (hehe). I stopped watching for a while but am slowly getting back into things. For me, the storylines and the charisma make the match more than the actual ringwork does - if I get both, then so be it. The only exception to this may be the acrobatic types like the Chavo Guerreros, Rey Mysterios, Mil Mascarases, etc. They're just fun to watch.
Really? Why then are Hulk Hogan and The Rock the most successful wrestlers of all time? Why were they so much more successful than Bret Hart, who is generally considered one of the better workrate guys?
Have to agree. While workrate is important, most of the best-known and successful wrestlers since the 80s Rock 'n' Wrestling era have been downright bad, such as Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Kevin Nash, Undertaker, Kane, Sid Viscious, and Lex Luger. Many of the rest of the top stars of the past 20 years, like Sting, The Rock, Austin, and Foley could wrestle fairly well, but got over on their charisma, personas and mic work, not their in-ring skills. Each was able to tell a story in the ring with their bodies, despite utilizing fairly basic movesets. Flair and Steamboat get a lof of credit for their awesome matches, but take a look at them again. Nothing more dazzling that perhaps a superplex happens in their bouts. Their matches were so memorable because of the expert buildup done for each match, including plenty of camera time for Flair, once of the business' best talkers of all time. The matches were intense because of the acting and selling each wrestler did with one another in the ring, not because of any awesome wrestling that they did. Not to take anything away from those two, who are great. Don't get me wrong, I love the guys who are stupendous workers. ReyRey, Eddie and Angle are by far my favorites. But to say that workrate is what the general population is looking for is an exagerration perpetrated by internet smarks. Being able to get in there and put on a good show really helps, don't get me wrong, but stars are made through booking and acting, not "wrestling" ability.
While I agree with you in part here..... Steamboat and Flair had phenomenal matches..... Most of their really good matches were before my time.... But as I watch them they really trancend that time in pro wrestling..... They had good build up.... but their matches alone.... WERE AMAZING... and selling moves and acting in the ring goes into ring psycholgy and patience...not just their ability to do moves.... Guys like Rocky and Austin... are excellent workers I never said they werent... In fact these two guys are arguably the two best WWE performers ever... Including hogan savage and austin.... Also you cannot compare The Rock to Hogan....Rocky is 10 times the performer Hogan ever was....not to take anything away from hogan ... he put pro wrestling on the map.... but as we saw in hogans comeback he could not keep up with guys like Rocky... But what I get mad at is people who do not like Eddie and Benoit.... they are both first time champions and they have earned it.... If you go to Live Shows... these guys consistently for the last year have been getting huge ovations... Eddie in particular.... Benoit has earned a reputation for putting on excting matches... Those who dont think these guys should be champions of their respective brands are definetly in the minority.
Bret Hart was wildly successful. The Rock is a great combination of great mic skills and great in ring storytelling ability. Hogan won because who the hell else were they going to give it to at the time, Hillbilly Jim? Come on. There were so few guys in the comic book WWF of the 1980s that could hold the belt without looking silly. I'm not saying that you don't need some charisma...but all charisma and no ring ability makes for a really bad show...see Hogan recently.
Not that I dislike Hart, but you can't compare his success to Rock's or Austin. Hell, the fans flat-out turned Hart HEEL they loved Austin so much more. Remember that? Hart started his feud with Austin as a face, but their roles slowly reversed because the crowd was so hot on Austin. It's kinda funny to me that you say, "Who were they gonna give it to? Hillybilly Jim?" when Hart only got the belt because Vince had nobody else at the time. His intention had been to put the belt on Luger, and he did everything in his power to get Luger over exactly as he had done Hogan, but the fans never gave a crap about the Lex Express. So Vince simply aborted Lex's push and stuck the belt on Bret and waited to see if it would work or not. You may recall that the characters where just as ludicrous in Hart's salad days as they were in Hogan's, but most people don't. That's because while he's a great wrestler, has a huge fanbase and was part of some really good angles, Hart's run on top was NOWHERE near as memorable as Hogan's or Rock's, let alone Austin's. Bret had some great stuff with Owen and Michaels (when Michaels agreed to wrestle him), but Hogan and Austin took the WWF into the stratosphere. Incomparable, honestly. With all that said, Hart was a great wrestler, no doubt. And he did have his own charisma, certainly much more than Benoit. It's very sad that he's had the health problems he's had since his retirement. AFTER having to suffer through WCW and all the concussions...
