Questionable marginal moves, in the end, could prove just as costly as major moves. They may not at first, but once you consider the finances of the NBA, a rash of dubious expenditures could cripple your ability to make major moves down the line. Now if you are telling me Rudy T was the one handing out those contracts, then no I can't blame CD. Coach's all have a say in personnel matters, so they have a blame when talent is misjudged. I doubt coach's have any say in matters of finance, so they can't be blamed for handing out albatross contracts. I may be wrong on this though. In any case, if Rudy was calling all the shots, what's the use of having a GM at all? Now we are arguing semantics. You used roulette as an example of luck not evening out. I corrected this by pointing out, if replicated enough times, it will. My point stands, as you cannot count on luck to become successful. Do you disagree?
Even though the point is now moot, I did NOT believe Griffin to be worth 3 1st round picks Period. Nobody whose name is not Jordan was worth giving up all that. Also you may recall that there were signs at Seton Hall that Griffin had problems and had basically worn out his welcome there when he declared for the NBA draft. Funny how other NBA teams were able to learn about this while CD & Rudy remained completely clueless about his issues until he was here. And let's not forget that once he was here, those troubling signs continued with the final straw in my book being CD's trade of Kenny Thomas in order to clear the decks for EG to either step up and man that position or sink (and sink he did). When you give up what they gave up to get that one guy - said guy had better be a true stud and a difference maker. EG made a difference but not the positive one his taking would lead you to believe. It is a real tragedy how he ended up. That trade set this organization back years when it failed to pan out and ultimately cost Rudy T his job. I had no quarrel with Rudy getting dismissed but I maintained then as I have continued to maintain to this day that if Rudy T was being forced to walk the plank, then the next guy behind him should have been Dawson because he was equally responsible for the mess the Rockets had become. If holding CD accountable for the results of his actions as GM can be labeled "disrespectful" then I'm afraid I have fall in the disrespectful camp.
Well said. I agree with you for the most part. The only point in CD's favor was that he seemed to become a better GM under Van Gundy than he was under Rudy. Kinda like how Casserly got better with Kubiak.
Indeed I do because the sign on his door read General Manager and not rubberstamp to the Head Coach. No matter who made the decision, in the end the responsibility for that decision was Dawson's. He and not Rudy T was tasked with looking at the big picture and the long view. He and not the head coach was responsible for locating talented basketball players. If as you say, he simply abdicated his responsibilities in this matter, then exactly why was he kept here all those years? For sake of nostagia? That's the point I don't get when folks discuss CD: Nobody wants to hold him accountable for what went down during his tenure as GM which spanned over a decade, while Morey is scruntinized far more critically after only 2 years especially when he (Morey) has spent the majority of that time cleaning up the mess CD left behind. And again, what is this mindset where the head coach runs the team AND the organization? They had to know what they were getting in terms of coaching style and philosophy when they hired JVG. I mean, it was no secret what style of basketball his teams played at NY. As GM, CD was supposed to look at his team and compare that to what JVG wanted to do and then to proceed accordingly getting players. The fact is he simply didn't know what to do and when the results did not live up to everyone's expectations, it was JVG Head Coach and not Carroll Dawson General Manager who got a lot of the blame and, it is JVG Head Coach who continues to get blamed for something that was the responsibility of the GM. Last time I looked, that job was held by Carroll Dawson.
Well said. As much as we are all fans of the heroes of the organization, if the people in charge thought like us it would cripple a franchise. As much as nostalgia and past accomplishments matter, they cannot get in the way of accountability.
Maybe you're too young to remember the championship years, but we had NO General Manager at that time. Obviously, it wasn't a position of much importance to Les. You're fixated on what the guy's title is, without realizing that different organizations do things differently. The structure of the Rockets for a long time was that the coach was in charge. When CD was "promoted" to that position from Assistant Coach, do you think they told him to take the reigns and make whatever moves he wanted, and in effect take that decision making away from Rudy? For the Rockets, in the 90s, the position was one that involved making the phone calls to other teams and players, stuff Rudy didn't have time for. It wasn't a position of much authority. Which is one reason why Bob Weinhauer left to become an assistant coach and the Tod Leiwike (sp?) left to organize the fundraising for the Warrior's new arena. Maybe you didn't know that. And the mindset of coach running the team and the organization is one that's been successful for Pat Riley and Greg Popovich in the past. It's not a big deal. Nobody was complaining when we were winning 2 titles without a GM.
Sam's post demonstrates the second premise used to excuse the job (or the lack thereof) done by CD. Basically, this position states that NOBODY was in charge so in reality NOBODY is to blame. And if nobody's to blame, then why blame the GM? Hey, after all it worked: they won 2 NBA titles WITHOUT an official GM. (OK, let's for a moment set aside the job done by Steve Patterson during the lean years). You simply can't argue with those two banners hanging in the TC. But this discussion is NOT about what happened in the mid 90's - it's supposed to be about what happened AFTER the parades were done, the championship rings handed out and the banners were hung. It is about what transpired AFTER Dawson became the GM period. I find it interesting that he's given a decade long free pass simply because they won those titles when there was NO GM in place. In fact, if I were to adopt Sam's position, it may have been better for the Rockets had Dawson never been named GM because after all, they twice won it all WITHOUT him as GM. Maybe had that happened, things would have turned out better...
I'm not the one blaming anyone, and I'm not the one so horribly unhappy with my team's front office moves through the years. That's you. But if you are going to blame someone, I think it's important to remember who was really pulling the strings for all those years. I'm not saying "blame nobody", I'm saying put the blame where the authority lay.
It's weird how many people are defending Carroll Dawson, given that the initial post was just a sarcastic remark on CD being big on handing out huge contracts and making SPLASHES. Both of which are actually true. I especially like how the fact that he was our assistant coach during the championship years somehow make him immune to criticism. As if his contribution to those teams somehow make up for years of sideways personnel moves that continue to keep this team in a state of mediocrity. And on the subject of Eddie Griffin, I don't see why the teams shouldn't be blamed for picking him. The guy got involved in fights everywhere he went. And six teams passed on him despite knowing he had #1 talent. It's not like the draft was even a good one, with plenty of question mark players taken at the top(Kwame, Curry, Chandler, Gasol, Richardson, Battier-for his lack of upside). The fact that so many teams got scared off by Griffin, despite the alternative slim pickings, obviously meant they saw Griffin's potential problems, while the Rockets did not. In addition, people forget how we could've landed Rashard Lewis for Griffin a year into his career. Even after a year with us, our staff still felt he was going to be a star. Despite basically displaying nothing.
What I'm unhappy with is the squandered opportunity. When you look back at just how far they had to come from those early days at Hofheinz Pavilion to those long unfulfilled years at the Summit to those two magical seasons where they overcame it all and won the prize, well, that's an epic journey in my book. And then, at the highest point of this team's history I watched it all get frittered away - wasted by CD, Les and the rest of the organization. To say that I'm unhappy would be an understatement in the extreme sense of the word. But don't misunderstand me, while I place a good deal of the blame on Dawson for the terrible job he turned in as GM, the ultimate responsibility for what transpired I've always placed at the feet of Les Alexander. Because, it was Les Alexander who allowed his team and his organization to slide into mediocrity during those years with no coherent rebuilding plan and most distressing of all, nothing much to show for it. Good organizations not only reach the top, they also manage to stay there and under CD, the Rockets' organization was anything but good.
My post was more about how the Rockets basketball operations during the years between Hakeem's departure and Morey's arrival than about CD personally. Certainly Rudy and Les Alexander both had big roles in these decisions-- bigger than CD's, perhaps. It's about the "CD as GM" years rather than CD himself. For all we know, he might have been the one guy in the front office trying to talk Les and Rudy out of giving Cato a big contract and signing Mo Taylor. As you pointed out, no matter which of the front office guys did what regarding which players, the Rockets were "splash" oriented, and committed big contracts/resources in trying to make these "splashes" that got themselves stuck in mediocrity despite some moves that did work out. Aggressiveness is a good thing, but aggressiveness not tempered by a risk analysis can get you in trouble. By the end of Rudy's years, the team's payroll had talent, but was loaded with enough non-performing assets that it held them back both on the court and in terms of further talent acquisition (particularly given Les' quite rational desire to stay under the luxury tax limit). CD should be honored, and he is-- right there in the rafters. But that doesn't mean criticising-- or making a joke about-- those decisions in the "CD as GM" era (whether made by Les, CD or Rudy) should be banned as "disrepect to one of the Rockets gods."
A mistake is something that negatively impacts an entity. How did the signing of Cato do that to the Rockets? How could they have done better by not signing him? The same for Griffin - what is the alternate scenario where the Rockets don't trade for Griffin and end up better than they ended up? Replace CD with anyone you want - are the Rockets now challenging the 3-peat Lakers or the 4-time champ Spurs in any of those years? The GM making the "right decisions" does not win out. I flat out disagree. Championships are more luck than "right decisions". San Antonio does not win one championship without lucking in to Duncan. Same for Chicago/Jordan and Lakers/Shaq (they changed the compensation rules around max free agents switching teams after LA got Shaq). The only recent GM I'll give big time credit to for a championship is Dumars. Did anyone think Danny Ainge was a good GM before he traded for Garnett and Allen? Do you trust Danny Ainge to rebuild your team?
Let me rephrase. A GM consistently making the right decisions will: In the short run, have a higher likelihood of outperforming his peers. This does not guarantee a championship however due to the aspect of luck. In the long run, win many, many championships. If the above is false, then every team should amass a team of monkeys to run their operations instead, thus cutting their expenses dramatically while improving margins. If indeed luck is the determining factor that is.
Why do you insist on inserting vaguely pornographic words into your posts? Do you have a fixation with something you're unable to do yourself? Or perhaps admit to yourself? Pity. Also, spend less time looking at perverted p*rn and more time reading books. "Criticizing" and "disrespect" are the proper spellings, as any person mildly proficient in the English language should know.
[rquoter] 7. McGrady for Baron Davis and Chris Kaman! (Dean Cooper, could you run it through ESPN's trade machine and see if it works?) Man, that's like 40 points, 15 rebounds and 11 assistrs. Awesome! 8. Corey Maggette is available? 9. Landry+Barry+Skinner (edit: I mean Cook. Those Brians confuse me. It ain't a basketball name I'll tell you that much) for Maggette! Whoo Whoo! Another 20 ppg![/rquoter] How is what is posted above anything but disrespectful? You tried to paint CD as a bumbling fool. Just admit it.
I didn't say it was all luck, I said it was more about luck than anything else. The Rockets' championships were mostly luck due to winning the lottery and grabbing Olajuwon. They simply would not have won a championship w/o that happening, no matter what Morey-type hidden gems they found. Same with the Bulls, same with the Spurs. That's 12 championships right there. Can you really argue that those championships weren't mostly luck? Where is the evidence that championships are won "in the long run" by simply making the right decisions?
It's a caricature about the Rockets not exactly being "detail oriented" during CD's years as GM when trying to make a perceived "splash"-- and really, it's a caricature about some of the "WHY DOESN'T MONEYBALL MAKE A SPLASH TO MAKE OUR SUMMER EXCITING?" posts we see on the board. Sure it's absolutely exaggerated-- I am pretty sure CD (and Rudy and Les) know the difference between Brian Cook and Briand Skinner, and know the salary cap very well, but it sure seems those guys overlooked some pretty importan "details" if they were spending tens of millions on Moochie, Mo and Cato.
I have somewhat been following this thread. I thought it was funny! Lets be honest, while its been said CD didn't mind swinging for the fences with big trades, the guy had HORRIBLE (luck if you will) with contracts. These all set the club in financial trouble for years. Kelvin Cato Moochie Norris Matt Maloney Maurice Taylor Brent Price Not to mention his draft history. You can argue that he drafted 1 good 2 decent players? Yao, Mobley, Kenny Thomas (thats a reach) maybe Othella Harrington? He also traded away Richard Jefferson for Eddie Griffin. Passed up Rashard Lewis 3 times in the same draft. Traded away Pryzbilla and Najera who were serviceable players. While you can credit him with being a great coach with the big men to be honest the guy was NOT a great GM. My 2 cents....
