WWCDD: What would CD do?

Coaching is obviously important, but do you think it is the difference between a 49 win team and a 17-43 team? Or maybe there were other factors?

 

You should choose your words wisely.

Yes there was a coaching change, but in a players league, do you really believe that was the sole cause of this huge decline?

The whole point of my argument is there were multiple reasons for the Grizzlies declined. You are arguing Battier is the reason. You down played the loss of Gasol as being trivial because of of how the Grizzlies performed after Gasol was traded. Another oversimplification.

CarlHerrera: Gasol was an All-Star power forward prior to the Lakers trade. Gasol is skilled enough and team-oriented enough to play along side Kobe. He's more than just a great complimentary player. His international play and NBA play as "The Man", prior to the trade to the Lakers, speak for itself. The Lakers were stuck in mediocrity and spiraling downwards prior to the Gasol joining.

 

This should have been in quotes: "Yes there was a coaching change, but in a players league, do you really believe that was the sole cause of this huge decline?" -- CXbby

 

And what exactly does that have to do with anything? Posey and Williams weren't even on that 49 win team, so why bring them up?

Are you serious? You honestly think the only difference between Gay and Durant is that Durant shoots more? To answer your question, I've watch both enough to know who is the superstar and who is the dime-a-dozen athletic wing. I won't even waste the time to further explain myself here.

Next, you are not getting my logic here. I never said a great player would always lead his team to wins. If he did not have the supporting cast, then you can't pin the losses all on him. So in that sense alone, it is neither Gay nor Durant's fault that their team is losing.

HOWEVER. Seeing how Gay's team was winning before he got there, and the biggest change to go from that to losing was a swap of him and Battier, one must concluded that he was at least somewhat of a culprit. The better argument you should have taken was the coaching change, since that was the only other tangible difference. However, I ask again, do you really think that was what made THAT big of a difference?

The fact of the matter is, I wasn't even defending Battier. I was merely pointing out the flaw in your comparison of trading Battier for Gay and Battier for Durant. I do agree with you that we did not get enough for the pick though. Even though Battier is definitely a Morey $ball guy, CD was the acting GM at the time. One can only assume that he was the one at the negotiating table, and failed to acquire fair value. If we could have gotten Lowry then, I doubt many would still be upset today. I'm not sure why you are bringing up Ronnie Brewer. Seeing how Battier is the superior player, the point is moot.

Well, if you truly believe that, and think the only difference between Gay and Durant is that Durant shoots more, then our discussion stops there. You win.

 

I can agree with that. However my point was that swapping Battier for Gay was a major culprit. I never said it was the sole reason.

We are talking about 06/07, the year BEFORE Gasol was traded. Please reread my posts so that you can respond wisely. How am I downplaying the loss of Gasol when he was in the lineup when they went 17-43. LOL.

 

Gasol was injured and was not himself for the majority of the season. The team was moving in a different directio and tanked for the Oden/Durant lottery. You oversimply the IMPROVEMENT of the team after Gasol left.

 

Can one of the Battier-defenders respond to this please?

 

The whole swapping of Battier for Gay is a result of the team going in a different direction. Not the other way around. Jerry West wanted to get younger and more athletic and play a different style. <--That was the main culprit, hence firing a good coach, miring Gasol in trade talks, and ultimately tanking the season in hopes of Oden or Durant.

 

Now you are the one oversimplifying things. So now they were that bad because they were tanking? Let me ask you, why is it that they didn't come up with this ingenious strategy all those years before, when they still had Battier? Oh right, because they still had a shot at winning.

Where? When I said they actually won more games after he left? I was just stating a simple fact. I never said it was because Gasol left.

 

You have, in fact, been implying with the said facts. Unless you're wasting time and space filling your arguments with pointless facts. Reread your posts. I'm not going to waste any more time with you. Have a good day.

 

CD has done some good things for us... Yeah, he was a little more flash and risk than Morey, but he made some big moves that at least got the fans buzzing, and usually had a whole log of potential. I mean a LOT of the moves he made could have/would have led to very good things if not for injuries. This dates all the way back to the Olajuwon/Drexler/Barkley era.

 

Made a couple typos.

Also, just to be clear, I think Morey is incredible, but CD was not a bad GM. If he was, this team wouldn't have been so competitive for so long, minus that one stretch of lottery years (and even then, we were usually a much better non-playoff team than most teams are during their rebuilding years, thanks in big part to the great trade for Francis).

 

I have been stating facts, however you are the one doing the implying for me. You are simply misinterpreting my intent. It's all good.

It is possible to have a discussion without taking it so personal, don't be so offended.

 

Nobody's saying that Rudy Gay is trash. But Aldridge puts up as nearly as many points as Rudy Gay (.8 less) while averaging 2 more boards, more assists, fewer turnovers, etc. and does it while playing 2nd fiddle on a substantially better team. It's not that difficult to score alot on a bad team. Nick Anderson used to score 20 ppg on the Magic before Shaq came around. JR Rider used to score 20 ppg for the T-Pups. Juwan Howard put up 22 ppg for the Bullets. A young Mo Taylor put up 17 and 5 for the Clips. Shareef Abdur-Rahim put up 20+ 7 times for terrible teams.

Come back to me when Rudy Gay proves capable of winning more than 24 games in a season. The Grizzlies, btw, went from 1st to 29th in team defense when Battier was traded for Gay.

 

there is no more ridiculous argument than player putting up numbers on a bad team, nick averaged 20 before and after so I don't really know where you are going with that anyway

and the fact that shaq changed the dynamic of that team invalidates your argument anyway, yeah, if rudy gay had a young shaq he'd be on a playoff team also, instead he has a team of young guys.

 

Nick put up 20 in Shaq's first season, when they made the lottery again and picked up Penny. With Penny as the lead guard he dropped to 16, then 15, and then 12 ppg. The point being, nobody looks back at Nick Anderson as some kind of badass talent. He was a pretty good shooting guard for a few years, and that's it. That team was much better with him as a 3rd option than as its 1st or 2nd.

And the fact that there was a thread on this very board last week asking "Who's going to score 20 ppg this year" proves my point, exactly. Aaron Brooks might go for 20 ppg on a team that's missing Yao, Ron, and Tracy... but that doesn't mean he's going to be substantially better than the 11.5 ppg guy who we had on the roster this season. Same for Scola, who could go from 12.7 to 18 - 20 ppg just by virtue of more shots. Give a guy enough shots and he'll score for you. Heck, Deke scored 17 ppg his rookie season (by far his highest average of his career) because they kept feeding him the ball, even though he never had much offensive game.

 

so he put up less points when he got more talent, and the team got better again when they got more talent?

This still doesn't prove anythig? Tracy put up 28 a game on a 21 win Orlando team, the only thing this proves is that you need more talent than one player to win. battier never put up twenty on some terrible memphis teams, so what's the point? it takes talent to score, rider was a talented player who had issues. Nick Anderson was a talented scorer playing on a bad team.

 

There are plenty of scorers in the NBA. It is a talent, for sure, like passing is a talent or rebounding is a talent or defense is a talent. But how do you answer my assertion that guys like Mutombo and Mo Taylor could put up 17 ppg? It's not that rare of a talent.... there are plenty of guys who, given the chance, could put up some scoring decent numbers. The guys like Ryan Bowen or Chuck Hayes who couldn't score if you left them wide open are pretty rare.

And FYI, Battier wasn't on many bad Memphis teams. His last 3 years they won 50, 45, and 49 games. Since he's left they won 22, 22, and 24.

 

mo taylor was a decent scorer on a rockets team that won 45 games, he was a good player, just never rebounded. but honestly i don't understand where you are trying to go with the debate now. does rudy scoring 20 a game prove he's a future star, maybe not, but rudy will still only be 23 years old for the entire upcoming nba season, and he put 20 at age 21.

two out of five years they were pathetic his time in Memphis. what changed, pau gasol.