McCray, you just completely read into whatever you wanted? Let me repeat it again for the Special Ed students on the board: But to question the mans character or desire when he clearly never displayed any quit in any game is totally r****ded. Notice I said in ANY GAME. I didn't say off the court, in his house, on the golf course, somewhere in Aruba, on Mars or anywhere else. I said on the COURT. And yes, if you question his character and desire on the court it is totally r****ded because he never displayed anything to show the contrary. Did he choke in some games? Yes. So, that makes him have how much less desire/character than Jordan or Dream since they practically hit every shot they ever took in clutch situations, eh?
ZRB, so Barkley did nothing for us in 1997, and only played half the games. First off, he missed 30 games, not half. Secondly, they were FLUKE injuries. One Bobby Hurley stepped on his ankle and the other was the hip injury the Praying Mantus (Shawn Bradley) gave him. A hip pointer because Bradley ran into him as <b>nothing to do with his preparation or conditioning</b>. Neither do ankle injuries. He was pulling down 13.5 rpg without that damn hip pointer. He was a 20/10 player that year. On the other hand, Dream has heart problems. Yeah, I call them heart problems alright. Willis went down, and so did Drexler. Here's his highlights from the playoffs. He crushed Seattle, but balanced out Malone for Dream and Drexler to win it. In my mind, we deserved that win. I'm sorry you are such a negative fan that you would say we blew that series. And I'm sorry you are so anti-Barkley that you'd say a hip pointer collision by Bradley was a sign that Barkley was injury-prone. <ul> <li>NBA PLAYOFFS NOTES <li>Registered 20 points and 16 rebounds in a 95-92 victory over the Utah Jazz in Game 4 of the Western Conference Finals <li>Recorded 19 points, 16 rebounds and 4 assists in a 118-100 victory over the Utah Jazz in Game 3 of the Western Conference Finals <li>Posted 16 points and 12 rebounds against the Utah Jazz in Game 2 of the Western Conference Finals <li>Totaled 20 points and 14 rebounds in a 96-91 victory over the Seattle SuperSonics in Game 7 of the Western Conference Semifinals <li>Recorded 20 points, 12 rebounds and 5 assists against the Seattle SuperSonics in Game 6 of the Western Conference Semifinals <li>Registered 17 points and 20 rebounds against the Seattle SuperSonics in Game 5 of the Western Conference Semifinals <li>Posted 26 points and 15 rebounds in a 110-106 overtime victory over the Seattle SuperSonics in Game 4 of the Western Conference Semifinals <li>Grabbed 17 rebounds, and added 11 points, in a 97-93 victory over the Seattle SuperSonics in Game 3 of the Western Conference Semifinals <li>Scored 21 points, and grabbed 7 rebounds, against the Seattle SuperSonics in Game 2 of the Western Conference Semifinals <li>Recorded 19 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists and 3 steals in a 112-102 victory over the Seattle SuperSonics in Game 1 of the Western Conference Semifinals <li>Averaged 18.3 points, 10.7 rebounds and 4.4 assists in a sweep of the Minnesota Timberwolves in the Western Conference First Round </ul>
Crispee, half of the time, you offer very interesting posts about the salary cap, Rocket players, technical aspects of basketball, etc.. The other half of the time, you act like an overly officious jerk. You try to tell people what should be posted and what should not be posted- it is silly (ex. asking Cat not to post Chronicle article titles). You and behad have a slight problem with your anal personalities. You have now misquoted me twice, and that shows me that YOU are not only unprepared for a debate about Barkley, but you are unprepared for an HONEST debate. You introduced the term "morality" into this argument, and then you twisted its context here. Also, there is a difference between my "put that in you pipe and smoke it. " and your- "stuff that professional morality up your pipe". Of course, you knew that, or you would not have left off the in your post where you MISQUOTE me. In all your arguments, I have noticed two faults. 1. You take disagreements personally. For instance, my attacking Barkley should not illicit an offensive response from you. 2. You attempt to put words in the mouths of being you are arguing with, and then use those same words against them. It may work with some people, but I am not impressed. Get to work on those faults- won't you? Thanks in advance.
. That was impressive and scary at the same time. Has to be the longest Mango post I have seen. There are two things which nobody can question: 1) You got your facts straight - that will be almost impossible to refute. 2) You have too much time on your hands
I think this whole Dream/Barkley debate is unnecessary. Dream will always (at least until Cat and Steve get us those 5 consecutive championships) be the No. 1 Houston sports icon. Barkley was a great, and entertaining, addition to the team while he was here. What's the point of trying to find things that make one or the other look bad? I like both. End of story .
TheFreak, Lets see how far off I am from the topic. Topic Title: <B> Writing on The Wall From the Word GO </B> That is what the timeline in the second half of my post illustrates. So on topic there.
Thanks for the analysis. btw: I never said to Cat to stop posting titles to Chronicle articles. I asked him to post the title, only. And it was in humor. Obviously, you missed that part which Cat did not. You just misquoted me again in that Cat thingie up there. Rodney....I am just a poster, like everyone else. Why are you going off topic to analyze me? Just debate, dude, quit trying to analyze and admonish the evil crisper. Just say you hate big mouths like Barkley, and be done with it. Quit assuming you know my motives. You just end up sounding overly-sensitive to me, and make me throw my hands up in the air. Yes, you are correct, but only after you called Drexler a solid citizen and Barkley an "alcoholic." If my defending Barkley as a solid citizen and hardworking bball player and Drexler as less than that and Dream as a noted in-fighter is twisting the context, so be it. You had no right calling Barkley an alcoholic!!!! Oh, let's measure everything by use of smilies. I didn't realize a copy-cat comment requires a copy-cat smilie. I am defending Barkley against his never-ending assaults on his personal life and character outside the game. If you don't know the man or personally know people in his life, then you have no right doing that, smilie or not. And no one has any right to call him a drunken alcoholic who essentially stole money from the franchise. Again, quit thinking you can read another poster. Do you want me to explain what is wrong with that personality trait??? Rodney, don't call Barkley (my hero) an alcoholic who wasn't prepared, because of his alcoholism. If you think I am taking that personally, then I hope it makes you feel good and righteous and whatever else you need to feel justified.
It is called communication. I have always had some bad vibes about Dream off the court, and some of us want to communicate that; that is why we don't care that he left like he did. It does not mean that we don't hold him up to the highest standards as a basketball legend. But you know, he is just a sports star. To me, Barkley is an model of courage on and off the court. I don't mind people saying Dream is beyond just a sports star; just say it then. TheFreak won't say it; he doesn't want to say he is sad Dream left or is sentimental about it (at least I haven't seen it). Rodney McCray wants to take this moment to call Barkley an alcoholic. I want to take this time to say why I don't care that Dream left. So be it. And I think Almu summed up my feelings the most, and that's why I chose this thread over all the others. If the Dream sentimentalist can't take a Dream fan saying "so be it," wow! then no wonder this all sounds like an argument and people getting personal. You know; I don't look at it that way. Just let me talk and say why I don't care. I'm a Dream fan, and this is expression. Dream got injured by a cold glass of water. Barkley never quit. And Rodney wants to psychoanalyze me. So bet it. Oh, and here's the smilies that I forgot last time
Mango -- you were on topic if you were addressing Almu, but you directed your post at me. Most of your reply had nothing to do with my post. Oh, and crispee, I'm sentimental about Hakeem. So what? That's what sports is all about.
Nothing is wrong with it, not at all. I am in fact asking for your take from a sentimental perspective, rather than your ongoing defense of Dream. Personally, I'm not sentimental much anymore about sports. I can let it go, just not Barkley's memory. I feel hurt for him. For Dream, I feel nothing. I don't mean to dis anyone's sentimentality for him, but I wish more would write posts about it, rather than reasons why I should not say anything negative about him. Sentimentality is personal. Share it. I want to see why TheFreak cherishes the memory of Dream.
Sorry HP, I wrote this before I saw your request for a diologue with theFreak. I was getting a little bent out of shape with some comments. Peace to you Freak, it was one hell of a ride with Hakeem as the Rocket . Which of the 4 Rocket HoFamers from the 90's took far below his going rate so the Rockets could add important players? -Charles Barkley. Which of the 4 took the most interest in constructively directing rookies and new players within the offense? -Charles Barkley. He had sins (unlike the rest of us I guess?), especially off the court, but even in his short time here his loyalty to our team was impeccable. His career was impeccable too, unless you discount all other players whose team was never was left standing (Karl Malone, Stockton, Payton, and Ewing are just a few compadres in modern history to have the same fate; it is not like other greats like Clyde, McHale, Worthy, and Scottie didn't win on others coattails). If you discount his overall basketball greatness, or his loyalty to the Rockets, you are just blinded by your personal distaste for him. Also, Hakeem was the greatest Rocket player ever, but that does not discount Barkley's contributions. Moses, Calvin, Reid and Rudy and many other great Rockets never quite ended the season by winning the last game played in the NBA that year in our uni, so if that is your only criteria Barkley has some mighty fine company. It is so twisted to somehow tie in negative feelings about Barkley with despair about Hakeem leaving. In fact having Barkley around probably extended Hakeem stay because we stayed near the top longer and Hakeem didn't have to carry the whole load. The year before he tried, and we got our clocks cleaned by Seattle. If you want to blame someone blame the league for nixing the deal where we would have got Barkley cheaper, blame Willis for losing his nerve after the Sam Mitchell fiasco, blame Clyde for retiring when he still could have helped us on the court (do you quit if you have a conflict with a co-worker), or blame Derrick Harper for not signing with us and forcing us to go with a rookie guard in our last real hurrah season. Or you can say we had some nice seasons even if they didn't all turn out how we ultimately wanted it to. We can also be happy with the Hakeem era Rocket team that produced 2 rings, 2 more finals and 1 more WCF, or nit pick about what could-da should-da been. Probably fans of 20 or so league teams would kill for achievements like that or to have had one of the 5 greatest centers to ever play give all his all-star seasons at your home arena.
How in the hell did I get into this discussion? Rodney, you obviously have some type of grudge against me to drop my name in the middle of this thread (a thread I have yet to post in). What did I do to you? Did I call you out for going against the established albeit unwritten rules of this board? Did I say a discouraging word against some basketball hero of yours? Did I piss in your Cheerios? Look, you have a problem, say it. Don't beat around the bush, or use some past perceived injustice to throw at crispee. For the record, I have more than three times as many people tell me they appreciate my policing of the boards as I have negative feedback. In addition, 98% of the negative comments came from trolls or newbies who did not know the rules. Which one are you?
My two cents worth: I always liked Barkley. He always said what he wanted to say, regardless of what anyone would think about it. He CARED for this team, he cared when Hakeem no longer cared. It was Barkley that carried the team in the lockout shortened season; It was Barkley that fought like a madman against the Lakers in that series and had one of the most awesome games of his carrer. He even mad Pippen play like a madman in that game, for chrissakes! It was Barkley that later refused an offer from the same Lakers when he could've split and eventually earn his ring over there; a point i haven't seen taken in this thread yet; When I look at Steve's first season and I remember how much of a fire Barkley used to light under his butt... how he said once he couldn't allow Cassell to torch him like that... how Steve said he looked up to him, and how much he meant to the team as a leader. What kind of leader Hakeem Olajuwon was? Bottom line: Barkley CARED. A lot more than Dream has cared for the team for AGES! NO ONE has ever heard of Dream taking his time off to show some moves to Cato. To try and motivate him. To even play ANY sort of leadership role within the team. Dream alienated himself from his teammates. He demanded to be waived. He praised Riley as a big man's coach. Freak, we have been at odds over Hakeem in the past, and say what you will about this. But when I read on ESPN that CD had trouble holding back tears because the big guy is really leaving, it's hard not to picture Dream as the bad guy! And when I see that he is leaving over 3 million dollars when that is spare change for him, when Barkley played for a million to get Quitten here. Damn man, when I see that, try as I may, and believe me, i didn't want it to be like this, things are clear. C'mon. After awhile, it starts getting hard to make up excuses for the guy. I KNOW how you feel. I want to believe it too. I want to believe that a guy I cared about like Hakeem is not a creep, and this is not a black and white good vs. evil scenario. I want to believe that so much, that when he took back his comments about being waived last season, I thought, well he came to his senses. But no. I was right in the past. And yet, when I woke up, and I saw the headlines. "The Dream is Over". Damn, i felt uncomfortable. Because the man means so much to many of us. Or meant. Something beyond sports. An icon. Unfortunately, after the initial shock, when reality sets in, was he an icon? Did he live up to the image we had of him? To the admittedely HIGH standards we set for him? No... he played us all for an entire month to stroke his bruised ego. To feel wanted. To feel like maybe the Rockets were HIS team. And not a bunch of kids'. And yet, my friend, it was Hakeem HIMSELF that let go of the team. It was him, through his lack of interst, fire, passion for the sport of basketball itself that left the leadership role AND burden to Barkley, who embraced it like the true warrior that he was. Say what you want about Barkley. He was a 100% authentic product. And he cared. You might want to say that he cared so much because he never won it all. Fine. Maybe it is so. And maybe, just maybe, there is some truth to the speculation that there was a Dream/Chuckster feud. Being prideful as Dream is, I'm sure being robbed of the spotlight by the Chuckster must've upset him. Everyone knows it to be true. The Dream ressurection we saw briefly last season, try as I want to, knowing what I know now, looks like the product of a man who's pride had been hurt and wanted to advertise himself for the upcoming free-agency. You REALLY believe that he somehow, through God knows what miracle was able to perform like that after YEARS of sleepwalking on the court? He could've done it all along! He just didn't care enough to! I have to side with crispee on the injuries being faked! C'mon. He wouldn;t even get mad over a bad call. He would just laugh his way to the bench in disbelief as if it was nothing important. You are making all these excuses, as it has been said, out of sentimentality Freak. You don't want it to be true. And believe me, I dont either. None of us do. I still remember the words he said to Rockhead. That he would work, not just over here. He doesn't care. He doesn't care about the fans, the city, the organization, or anything like that. He cares only about money and his great ego that needs to be stroked. I have lost respect for Hakeem Olajuwon indeed. He is a player like any other. Nothing more, nothing less. And now that a reality check has been made, I really don't care that he left. Only the way he did it hurts me. Charles is the man. Hakeem is the pretender. Are sports only about winning? I don't think so. I've followed the Rockets, one way or another, very closely for the past 5 years. And it's not only about winning. When people bring the argument "HAKEEM GAVE THE CITY OF HOUSTON IT'S ONLY CHAMPIONSHIPS IN PRO SPORTS" you know what I say? Screw that. The city of Houston doesn't mean a damn thing to me. Í don;t live in Houston. I'm not even an american. I live in BRAZIL, and i'm a fan of the ******* HOUSTON ROCKETS basketball team AND organization. I like to know that I root for a team who has honorable people in it's coaching staff, management, and ownership. And yes, on it's roster too. I like to think that these are good guys. Guys I can root for and guys I would enjoy hanging out and drinking beers with. I know i would enjoy it with Cat. With Steve. With Barkley. I'm not sure it would be enjoyable and that I could turn my back to Hakeem Olajuwon. He is not a honorable man. And for that, i pity him. To the really ADDICTED basketball fan, as most of us are, following these guys lives is like following a soap opera of sorts. And of course, winning the championship would be the ULTIMATE happy ending. But on this soap opera, one of my favorite characters has revelead himself to be a villain, a trickster, and a manipulator. And that is how I see him now. A hungry money making, glory seeking, spoiled brat in need of a massive ego stroking athlete. And I have no admiration for such a person. None at all. Championship or not, Barkley means a helluva lot more to me than Hakeem EVER did. And now, sadly, more than ever. Sorry for the lenghty post.
I have come to the conclusion (just as Thanos has) that Freak is absolutely blinded by his sentiments for Dream. And like Thanos I understand. I am not blind. And if I meet Olajuwon one day in my office, I will still faint and probably cry like a little biatch. But then, I will get angry and asked him why I think he abandoned my team and the place I continue to call home no matter how far I am from it. What can I say. I am disappointed with his attitude and his decision. And if you think that we or the city never did anything for him, I want to ask you how the hell he get so damn famous? How the hell did he get so damn comfortable living in a city where he is the next thing to God when it comes to sports? Kids want to be him. Kids spend money on him. Kids and their parents attend autograph sessions for him. Some people even try to be him.
btw, Mango, thanks for the great recap. You should be paid for such a piece of fine art. That post was professional!
I'm not blinded by anything. I don't put professional athletes on pedestals, plain and simple. The ones that are blinded are the ones with these artificial standards they set for athletes, that they have NO CHANCE of ever living up to. When they do something so minor that happens to tarnish your image of them, you turn on them. SILLY. I don't care when someone complains to the press when they want to play more. I don't care how someone NEGOTIATES A CONTRACT. These are men trying to do their job, that's it. To think they are anything else is to be blinded by sentiment.
I do share Thanos' validation of bringing Barkley to the Rockets, but not Thanos', Mango's and Almu's views on Hakeem leaving. Hakeem like all stars have egos and personal faults we may choose to see, but he did spend all his phenomenal years in Houston (Rockets, Coogs), and that is what he will be remembered for. It was better for Hakeem now and the Rockets in the future for him to go to Toronto, in fact it probably should have happened a year or two ago where it was obvious we were out of realistic title runs with that team. We lost nothing substantial in the past month's negotiations so that both sides could try to save face--I see nothing wrong with that. The split is painful, but it was the right thing for all. Good luck to Hakeem in Toronto, I looked forward to him going in the HoF in the Rockets red uni and to the reborn Rocket team.
