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would you trade James Harden for Jimmy Butler?

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Madclownpacasum, Jan 5, 2016.

  1. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

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    I guess you missed the first 4-6 minutes of every game where Harden is extremely passive while the rest of team limps around trying to execute "team" plays which fails miserably.

    Harden has never not been willing to share the ball, even to the detriment of the team.

    They always go back to his isolations because it is far and away the most effective.
     
  2. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    then you should see I've said nothing about hero ball
     
  3. neruto

    neruto Member

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    fine. i was just refuting that Harden is a "hero" ISO ball (like Iverson) or ball hog type of a player, but I guess there was some mis-communication.
     
  4. colt45nyc

    colt45nyc Rookie

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    I feel Harden is similar to Melo with the Knicks now. They both are elite offensive players with teams that forces them to focus on being iso hero ball players. So, I kind of agree with you that if they are put in an offense that played more team offense and set plays, they are gifts enough to adjust to that style of offense.
     
  5. neruto

    neruto Member

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    I agree with u that in some sense they are in a similar situation, but there is one big difference between Harden and Melo (to whom some people draw comparison time to time), and that is efficiency.

    Harden is a career 60 TS% 2-guard with pretty good (and at times careless) passing skills. That makes him one of the most efficient players per possession on the court, hence, why he is in top 5 or top 10 in most of the advanced stats categories.

    Melo, on the other hand, is the poster boy for 'inefficient chucker'. I don't have anything against guy, but that's just his reputation, and all the numbers bear that out. His career TS% is only 54%, which is pretty bad for a small forward, and never once had 25+ PER in a single season. Very low on +/- stats too, further evidence that his offensive style is not conducive to winning games.

    So, despite some similarities, at the end of the day, Harden is a much better player to build a team around than Melo is, who has never been selected to ALL-NBA first team in his career.
     
  6. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

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    Melo doesn't facilitate as well as Harden, so in terms of offensive impact, Harden is far superior, however as scorers, Melo's lack of efficiency (due to not drawing fouls) is made up for by how little he turns over the ball.
     
  7. neruto

    neruto Member

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    I don't think Melo makes up enough though. His advanced stats are pretty much atrocious across the board. That's why some people put Paul Pierce above him, not because he has rings, but because he was more efficient as a player. Among circles of stat geeks, Melo is famous for being an outlier, in the sense that his numbers do not live up to his reputation (Other famous example is Allen Iverson).

    Harden is actually known for his high efficiency, mainly due to his uncanny ability to draw fouls, because free throws still remain one of the efficient ways to score, and he doesn't take that many middle-range jumpers and makes a lot of 3s at a decent clip. Also he can pass the ball, which means Harden is creating points for the team even when he's not scoring himself, just like Lebron.
     
  8. neruto

    neruto Member

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    Just to be clear, I meant Melo is not even efficient in scoring category (as evidence by TS%).
     
  9. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

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    That's true, but his points per possession are comparable, so it is a bit of a wash.
     
  10. neruto

    neruto Member

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    I think in Melo's prime that could've been the case, since he was a gifted scorer after all.
     
  11. larsv8

    larsv8 Contributing Member

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    Yes, his prime, he is nowhere near as good now.
     
  12. neruto

    neruto Member

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    I agree :)
     
  13. tehG l i d e

    tehG l i d e Member

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    Butler arguable has better talent around him and his Bulls can barely sniff .500 like the Rockets. The East is better this year but it's still overall worse than the West.
     
  14. Fantasma Negro

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    Its exactly like Iverson, it's like Kobe, Wade and Lebron. Carmelo got lucky the Zinger is good. This is the layout of the nba, I've been watching a **** ton of basketball lately and there aren't a lot of above average players. Most teams are lucky to have one. I'm not talking about a system (Leonard), I'm talking about no matter where they go they're going to bust your ass. The majority of the league is relying on marginally consistent shooters. Dwight can say whatever he wants, he's inconsistent and physically unreliable, I'm shocked he's still playing at this point. But the people that complain that Harden holds the bsll too long need to shut the **** up. It's the way the game is played and it's always been that way and if you don't believe me its probably because you're too young to remember. On a side note Morey should be chasing Barnes this summer, not Durant. Barnes is a more complete player and he plays his ass off on the defensive end of the floor. Maybe somehow we could have him and Ariza would be sweet with Ariza coming off the bench...Trading James Harden for Jimmy Butler, really? That's the topic of this thread is about? Clutch is really letting the standards slip around here these days
     
  15. LosPollosHermanos

    LosPollosHermanos Houston only fan
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    James Harden is a poor man's butler version of Jimmy

    ;)
     
  16. HtownRock

    HtownRock Member

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    lol, Butler has been just pathetic in March. this dude is nowhere near Harden. hell, i would even pick Klay over this overrated injury-prone no-shooting-guard
     
  17. BandwagonRocket

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  18. HtownRock

    HtownRock Member

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  19. colt45nyc

    colt45nyc Rookie

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    Harden`s heart and focus is the key. When he`s mentally and emotionally locked in about winning a championship, he`ll play defense and a MVP of the league. We can win a championship with this harden. If he's the mentally weak and emotional distant player we seen alot, we will be a low seeded .500 playoff team.

    I don`t see harden committed in staying in htown, he's California dreaming.
     
  20. HtownRock

    HtownRock Member

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    This thread would have made more sense in the early part of the season, but as of now, Butler has not lived up to his expectations of overtaking Harden; in fact, the opposite happened, where the gap between them grew even more.

    Harden is averaging 30-7-9 on 45 FG%, and 2.2 steals per game after the all star break.

    Butler has averaged 15-5-6 on 39 FG%, and 1.9 steals per game during the same period.

    Harden is ahead of Butler in every statistical category, including both traditional and advanced.

    Houston and Chicago both have mediocre team records, and Bull are actually 9th in the EC, so no meaningful difference in terms of team accomplishment.

    It's time to close this thread and move on, 'cause there is no way for a injury-prone SG with subpar shooting ability is going to be considered best at his position.

    Nor does DeRozan have any chance, as Harden owned him and Raptors in the match-up this season.

    I think the current second best SG is probably Klay Thompson. Harden is still easily the best, and is way ahead of him in every metric besides team record, but Klay is catching up, and his 3s recently have been even more deadly than Curry's, so it'll be interesting to see how much Klay can improve. The rest are not even close, and should not be in the conversation.
     

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