Would you trade Hakeem for Shareef AND Big Country?

Great post cabbage.

You have pretty much totally persuaded me in the NO direction, although I was a little on that side in the first place. We waive Dream, or just let him play it out this year and give him our farewell and move on. We play out the rest of this year, and it's a win-win situation IMO...We either take that big step forward and make the playoffs, or we take a small step and just improve our record w/out playoffs and get a lottery pick to load up for next year. And if we get CWebb...great. If we don't...we're still in great shape with the picks we should get in the deepest draft in years. The Rockets are in a lot of teams dream situations right now...loaded with picks and lots of cap room after the season. Their may not be another team in the league that has what we have now(except the Bulls, but they cant seem to use that cap space). Lets not screw it up by risking those picks and using up that ever so precious cap space.

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"Steve is good. Steve is real good."


-- Cleveland's rookie point guard Andre Miller on Rocket rookie point Steve Francis

[This message has been edited by DieHard Rocket (edited January 17, 2001).]

 

Guys... for chrissakes... since WHEN a free agent is limited to signing ONLY with teams with capspace?

Webber will get WHERE HE WANTS TO, regardless of available cap or not!

Just look at the Brian Grant trade!

By threatening a team to walk out on them, a player can get WHEREVER HE WANTS TO!

And webber has stated how many times exactly how much he would like to be reunited with his buddy sprewell? In the big man depleted east?

LOOK at nikestrad's tread.

We can have ALL of them! Mo, Shadon, Francis, Cuttino and SAR.

How do you stop a team with 4 players that demand a double team? FOUR go-to guys?

we can fill our rebounding need through the draft or by dumping Los/Kt/Cato/Walt!

WAKE UP!!!!!!

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"Dream another dream, this dream is over... Dream another dream, this dream is over... Dream another dream..." - from the Van Halen song, "Dream Another Dream". Fitting, isn´t it?

 

What is the reason to trade for Sharif Abdur Rahim? Offense.

What does adding a rebounder (something you won't be able to do once the trade puts the 'cuffs on CD [lose all draft picks, cap space]) do? Add defense and offense.

"Adding a rebounder adds offense?!? What the hell are you talking about, Cab?" Think about it. Why do Steve, Cat, and Shandon hang around the basket after missed shots? Because they have absolutely zero trust in our big men's rebounding abilities. If we had a respectable rebounder, these 3 would go. IMHO, transition basketball adds a lot more to our offense than Sharif's one-on-one ability. Why? Because who in the league can run with Steve, Cat, and Shandon? Noone.

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It is no rumor that Matthew Bullard is 30th on the NBA's <i><b>all-time</i></b> 3 point accuracy list.

 

Four go-to guys is not what you want. Probably 3 at most, but that's stretching it. You don't want that many guys demanding their shots...it'll tear the team apart. Kind of like when we had Pip here...to many guys wanting the ball(although he couldn't do anything with it). Plus, with SAR, we won't be able to re-sign Mo and Shandon most likely. It's either SAR and BC, Shandon and Mo, or the unlikely Webber next year. Not 2 out of the 3. And don't forget about the rookies, they can fill our needs in the draft.

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"Steve is good. Steve is real good."


-- Cleveland's rookie point guard Andre Miller on Rocket rookie point Steve Francis

 

Thecabbage: last time i checked, Reef was quite a rebounder. correct me if i'm wrong on this.

Diehardrocket: I can't vouch for Reef, but Mo, Cuttino and Francis are unsefish players. Sharing the ball wouldn't be a problem for them.

For cap considerations, check nikestrad's tread. we can KEEP mo and Shandon and ADD Reef.

Oh, and don't place that MUCH hope in the draft. If we had the top picks THIS year, and rebounding was the need we wanted to fill, we would've went either Slomile or Kenyon and look at their results so far. NO imeddiate impact WHATSOEVER.

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"Dream another dream, this dream is over... Dream another dream, this dream is over... Dream another dream..." - from the Van Halen song, "Dream Another Dream". Fitting, isn´t it?

[This message has been edited by Thanos (edited January 17, 2001).]

 

Correction: Steve and Mo are unselfish players. I cannot say that Cat is unselfish, because he takes a lot of shots when others are open. But...he's not Kobe Bryant selfish, he just gets a little carried away sometimes.

And about Kenyon and Swift...This past draft was said to be a very week draft. Next year is supposed to be very deep, maybe the deepest ever. I'll bet that Kenyon and Swift might have gone 5th or below next year. Probably the reason Swift came out so early...Kenyon had no choice. We should get good players w/ CD and Rudy's draft skills.



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"Steve is good. Steve is real good."


-- Cleveland's rookie point guard Andre Miller on Rocket rookie point Steve Francis

 

Cabbage has pretty much given what I have been thinking all along as well. Shareef is a big name, but not someone who will bring you what the Rockets need.

As far as Webber:

I beg to differ on those calculations. First of all, I fully believe that Shandon will not opt out of his current contract. If not, he won't affect us to the extent that we can't sign Webber anyway.

So, the Rockets will have the following players under contract:

1. Anderson
2. Cato
3. Collier
4. Francis
5. Mobley
6. Rogers
7. Thomas
8. Williams
9. Maloney

This comes to around $28,163,387 (according to REALGM).

Free Agents:

Bullard
Maurice Taylor
Moochie
Langhi

For the sake of argument, let's just count a draft pick against the cap ($1 million). This brings us to $29,163,387. We will have around $13.5 available assuming that the cap will be around $42.7 as expected.
Webber is eligible as a Tier 2 max FA, meaning that he can command around 12.81 million.
Yeah, it's damn close but don't you think the Rockets would trade their picks away (a la Turckan with Pippen) to have enough space for Webber?
Moochie can still be brought in, while Langhi can be sacrificed.

You said we would have $14 million WITHOUT counting Shandon's salary. According to my calculations, we will have that including his salary of $2.4 million. Huge difference. In addition, Webber CANNOT command 14 million simply because of restrictions which will only allow him 30% of the cap. $12.81 million should be accurate.

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Nederland 2002

Rocketman95 on board. Check out his latest game recaps.

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited January 17, 2001).]

 

Hell yes I'd make that deal!!

Come on, SAR is one of the finest players in the league. The guy score 20 points and gets 10 rebounds as a SF.

I'd love to paid SAR with Francis and Mobley.

The Rockets would be the strongest backcourt and SF team in the league!!

Come on in three years the Rockets found Mobley in the 2nd round. Somehow managed to get Francis. Signed Anderson. Discovered Norris.

As it would stand the Rockets would have:

pg: Francis
sg: Mobley
SF: Rahim
PF: Taylor
C: Reeves

Bench: Norris, Anderson, Thomas

Bullard, Langi, Collier would be the end of the Bench

As I see this team, it has scoring. Francis, Mobley, and Rahim.

Shooting with Taylor.


Rebounding with Francis, Mobley, Rahim are all above average rebounders.

Taylor and Reeves are big bodies to put out on the court. Everyone knows you need big bodies out there!!!

I repeat, Hell yes you do that deal.

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The guns are cocked and the soldiers are in place, it's time to march and let the battles decide the war.

 

I'm hearing two arguments against the trade here, and they conflict with each other.

One is the argument that thecabbage (welcome back!) put forth that we really need a rebounding, defensive-minded player, instead of S-A-R. Four scorers is too many? Fine! You point to a free agent that we can pull in who meets that description, and I'll take him. We'd all love to get Theo Ratliff, but he's not for sale.

The other argument is that we've got a good shot at a free agent if we keep the cap room. Who? CWebb? That's living in an ideal world, guys, and what the heck happens if CWebb doesn't come to the Rockets? Hope to lure someone the next year? The hypothetical is a guarantee of Shareef, and that bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush. By the way, CWebb also likes to shoot the ball. Do the problems of having too many scorers go away suddenly if its Webber instead of Abdur-Rahim?

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"Thirty-seven?" -Randall, Clerks
www.clutchtown.com

 

Cabbage,.....KnottyPine here,
Just wanted to say Hi..long time no see..I've been gone too and I'm glad to hear that you still feel the same way about Ratliff.We did a lot of crowing over him two years ago and since he's been able to stay healthy is turning into a helluva player.........NOW,I don't think they would DREAM of dealing him.He's STILL exactly the kind of player we need........

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[This message has been edited by hardwood (edited January 17, 2001).]

 

Jeff--do you really think that it will only take 5 mil a year to re-sign Mo? With Falk as his agent, and all the other teams that are going to have a lot of money to throw at players, I tend to think any deal Mo signs is going to be 8-9 maybe even 10 per. Sure, he's probably not worth it, but I think we'll have to overpay to keep him. Of course, maybe he really likes the team and is willing to step back from some of the money that other teams are willing to pay him, but again, with Falk, I don't see that happening...

Back on topic--I don't touch this trade if Country is involved. SAR is great, but I don't even think we necessarily need another scorer. I think Mobley and Francis and Taylor give you plenty of options as it is, and taking on that salary hit is just going to hamper everything the Rockets try to do in the future.

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SamCassell,

1)

First of all, several options (not to say I would want all of them):

Marc Jackson
Eric Williams
Jerome Williams
Ruben Patterson
Antonio Davis

Obviously, Davis would be the best choice here. Webber is a scorer, yes, but he also provides that which cabbage and I are pulling for; a defensive presence, attitude, bulk, and shot blocking ability.

Seriously, I would rather be in the situation the Bulls are in (without the bad reputation and bad nucleus) than the one the Wizards are in. The Wizards will be mediocre for seasons to come. They have good players, but none that can take them to the top. Seeing that we're better than the Wizards anyhow, let's say that we become a playoff team. Seriously, I don't see Shareef bringing much more than that. Can you see us winning the title with such a line-up? I don't.

Cap space gives us room to breathe and to build around other pieces. We can always find a trade for Cato, Walt, or Rogers to free some space. We can always draft a good player and keep him (we will probably lose a few picks in a Van scenario). We can always re-tool, bring in a few of the so-called "missing pieces" for a low cost of a few million. This trade would not allow us to do any of that.

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Nederland 2002

Rocketman95 on board. Check out his latest game recaps.

 

I see the reasoning behind both sides, and I can understand it. I think a lot of what we think depends on how much we individually think we have a shot at Webber. That is why I voted for the trade: I don't see us being a major player for Webber at all.

Let me ask this: If all of you KNEW FOR A FACT that there was no way in hell that Webber was coming here, would it change the way you initially voted? Not to say that I know for a fact (I live in Utah, what the hell do I know?), and not to say that this trade deal is even a possibility. But would you guys change your mind? Assume there is no way to acquire Webber.

The only reason I ask this is because, as another poster stated, I hated to put all my eggs in Webber's basket. I would hate to see a genuine opportunity pass us by, because we have these hopes that we can sign C-Webb.

If you still think that it is a bad deal--be heard. I'm just curious.

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Jazzkiller

 

slc,
I think we have a very good shot at Webber,but, that is irrelevant in your hypothetical.This being said,I would still not do this deal.It just jams us up too much capwise for years.We have valuable assets,picks,and plenty of capspace to pull off a deal with another team(plus an unbelievable 2002 FA lineup).....I say no deal

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I may surprise you, but as someone who for weeks talked about and for it.: I have reconsidered. I am against a proposed trade with SAR and big boy. I guess it's like shopping for your dream car, and thinking of buying in the summer but here is this car in front of you that is hot and what you wanted for the longest. However, after sleeping on it, you realize the price does not justify it. I know I have bigger, better, Webber in my head, but I get such a strong feeling he has got to be leaning our way! Plus our picks in the deep draft.

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Sometimes you gotta do the next best thing!

 

Ace,

According to Patricia's page, A. Davis isn't a free agent until '03. JYD isn't a free agent until '02.

I really hope you all are right about CWebb, since the Vancouver trade won't happen (they won't do the deal). But I haven't seen the Rox ever pull off the premiere free agent, and I don't know how you all can be so confident. CB4 was a trade, ditto for Francis and Drexler. Even when we got Pippen, that was only after being spurned by McDyess. And as we all know (now), Pippen was no catch at all. Heck, we were Mo Taylor's second choice if Seattle had been able to pull off their original Ewing trade.

Webber has said some nice things about Houston - but he's said the same thing about every city he's visited this year.

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"Thirty-seven?" -Randall, Clerks
www.clutchtown.com

 

NBA players like it here as I'm sure your aware of,but the main reason I think Houston looks so attractive to CWEBB is having the chance to play with a guy who will probably go down as one of the NBA's greatest point guards before he is done.Another big point is that he would be the missing piece to a,then championship contender......and of course he will be paid well!!!!....How about Rudy also?...That could be yet another reason.In addition to that this is a team with a rich playoff history and we are moving into our new crib.

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Ace and Cabbage are doing an excellent job of presenting the no trade side. I wanted to add one thing though. What the pro-trade folks are missing is the severity of the results. If this trade does not make the Rockets a contendor eventually, which I dont think it will, they are in a deep hole. They will be way over the cap and have a completely unmovable player in Big Continent. Can you say Washington Wizards?

Also, I want to address slc's point of putting all your eggs in one basket on Webber. This Rahim trade would actually be doing that not the other scenario. If Rahim doesnt end up being the player that can help the Rockets reach elite contention, the franchise is ruined b/c there would be ZERO flexibility after the trade. However, if the Rockets dont get Webber, they can easily turn around and bid for FAs like Marc Jackson and Antonio Davis. I would like the team better with Jackson and Davis up front than the post-Rahim trade. Obviously the team with Jackson and Davis does not look as good on paper but those players fit the exact needs of this team and enable the roles of all the players to be clearly defined. Those guys up front sharing time with Taylor, Collier and whoever else would mesh extremely well with the three guard lineup.

There is no guarantee that Rahim will mesh well with this team and take it to the next level. I actually think it wont work b/c this team will be all scorers and no defense, that formula just doesnt win. Taking a completely cap crippling gamble on it isnt the wise move.

Also, as far as re-signing Taylor goes.... I am a big supporter of him and would like to keep him on as a Rocket but if Falk tries to play hardball asking for 7-10 mil etc, I would be the first to support showing him the door. Mo Taylor is not going to make more than 5 mil on the open market; if the Rockets offer him a longterm extension starting at around that amount, that should be more than enough to keep him in pinstripes. If not, he can leave.

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Sam, both Antonio Davis and Jerome Williams can opt out of their contracts this offseason. It is basically common knowledge now that Davis will test the market b/c he is not too happy with his situation in Toronto, and I would think Williams would look into the market as well.

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Check out the Best Source for Draft Info

Draftsource.net

 

ROXRAN, I'm with you. I was all for this trade. But, after letting all of the information from seven or eight hundred posts sink in, I shall recant. thacabbage came back with a vengeance and put me over the top. Everyone knew that rebuilding was going to take a while, so just be patient. No need to shoot ourselves in the foot trying to take a shortcut. Now it is important to use the capspace wisely and trade in all of those picks.

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Kenny Thomas had a foul called on him in the Western Conference Finals.