Would you trade Hakeem for Shareef AND Big Country?

I wouldn't do this deal. Sure SAR is an amazing player and has skills. But I don't believe offense is the answer. We have plenty of offense. I mean, we kept up with the Kings on the offensive side. Defensively is where we need a presence. Find a big center, i.e. Marc Jackson to fill it up or maybe Aaron Williams. These guys can rebound and block shots. With our guards scoring at will. (i'm sure they'll only continue to get better and better) We should search for some big bodies to play in the west. Also, by taking on Reeves' contract, you'd put the rockets in a hole for years. NOT worth it. We wouldn't even be able to resign Shandon and Mo.

Also, I don't think SAR is THAT Much an improvement over MO. Mo has the talent to develope into a good inside post player. Adding a Smart Defensive with solid offensive game(jackson) the rockets would be making a smart move.

-elie17

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Oh.. so this is how you add a signature huh? coo coo.

 

It all depends on Cato and what picks they ask for.

If they're willing to take on Cato, and only ask for one of this year's picks (Milwaukee's) in order to fulfill their trade obligation to Detroit, then I would lean towards making the deal. The Rockets would then be adding to the foundation with Reef and a serviceable, albeit GREATLY overpaid, center in Reeves while removing the resident underachiever. They may also include Othella in the mix, improving the front line.

If they demand more picks, then ABSOLUTELY NOT!

If they don't want Cato, I'd have to ask for a 2nd rounder.

Otherwise, the Rockets are just better off letting Dream's contract expire.

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"ON-BEE-TAH-BULL!!", Hakeem Abdul Olajuwon, alumnus, University of Houston

 

Daryle, if no one has answered your question yet, the answer is no. That is, we can waive him but we won't get any salary cap relief. If he's picked up off of waivers, the team picking him up will be responsible for his salary. If he clears waivers and then is picked up, his new team will be responsible for his minimum salary and the Rockets will be responsible for the rest. No one would be stupid enough to get him from the waiver wire, so if the Rockets trade for him, they will be stuck with his salary until his contract expires or they manage to trade him to someone else.



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RealGM
Rockets Draft Obligations Summary
Gafford Art
Artisan

 

Cato and Biggie?

Are we talking about 2 of the most overpaid C's?

Oh! Man! NOOOO!

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Think of the trade more in these terms:

We would likely have to send a second player in the deal to make up for minor salary cap indescrepencies. That would likely be Kenny Thomas. Second, Mo Taylor would be gone. Shandon Anderson would only be eligible for Early Bird money and if he got another offer for more, he would probably bolt. Finally, even Moochie Norris could be vulnerable if he is unwilling to accept the veteran minimum for next year.

So, let's think about this again.

Would you trade:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Kenny Thomas
Mo Taylor
Shandon Anderson
Moochie Norris
At least one first round pick - they'll definitely demand that
and a shot at Chris Webber

FOR

SAR
Big Country


Would you do that one?

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I am very very sleepy.

 

After further consideration, I have to change my vote. Given the Rockets reputation amongst players (meaning guys want to play here), the importance of cap flexibility in the new CBA era (everybody wants space so they can sign guys and make trades), the chemistry of our young team (Mo and Shan must stay), and the affect having an overpaid sloth on your bench can have on a team (see seattle, etc.) I don't feel the Rockets should jeopardize the rebuilding process by taking on too much salary. If the Grizz are willing to cough up Reef just to dump Reeves, it is easy to see the value of cap space.

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The problem is that Cap space does not guarentee anything.

Now, I would not do the deal if KT was involved. Only Hakeem and maybe Walt.

DaDakota

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If Mankind evolved from monkeys and apes, then why are there still monkeys and apes?

 

No its impossible. A trade like that, Jeff, would smash us into eternal hell.

Im getting scared, enough of this, lets not even insinuate that the Rockets would even consider this, anymore.

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Having cap space doesn't gaurantee much, but not having cap space gaurantees your team will have holy hell trying to complete any player transactions be it signing guys or trading guys. Its not about the gauranteed options, it is about ruling out tons of possibilites in one deal that may not pan out, will likely kill some team chemistry and may mean some guys can't be resigned (like Jeff pointed out, above). The Reeves cap kill will be for 4 years. CD and RT will certainly have many opportunities to strike some nice deals between now and then.

....

If Vancouver wants Kenny and a pick, then I think this deal should die. That impedes too much on our ability to attain players.

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I would make that deal ONLY if the Bulls are still interested in Big Country, and I would turn around and trade him to the Bulls for draft picks and/or a role player.

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"I have a scale at home and it only goes up so far, I love that scale!"
- Charles Barkley
TNT Studios

 

Obviously the Rockets are in the driver's seat to any and all trades in this situation. They cannot be blackmailed.

A few birds in the hand:

1) Dream wants out. His salary slot would facilitate many a crazy 3 team trade.

2) The Rockets' structuring of the Drew trade was a win. The Rockets have effectively prohibited one other wealthy team that has ample picks from doing any deals w/ those picks (during the regular season) for the next three years. The Bulls cannot trade their picks until they're improvement has been mathematically eliminated as a possibility.

This is hilarious in light of Jerry R. telling Jabba no wonka to improve the team recently. The Bulls more or less trade at the Rockets leisure.

3) The Celtics want to rebuild and unload Walker.

4) Vancouver is loosing over 25 million dollars per year.

There are alot of opportunities here.

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We're going to stay together until something happens, if something happens. - Sidney Lowe on Shareef's career in Vancouver.

 

<font color="#003366">I had posted this trade possibility earlier, when it first started leaking out about a SAR possible trade, and whether Bibby could be included in a trade scenario, so we didn't have to end up with Reeves. This may be what some are referring to, and I did run all this by Real GM at the time.</font>

Vancouver is in a <a href="http://www.thestar.com/cgi-bin/gx.cgi/AppLogic+FTContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=978928314643&call_page=TS_Basketball&call_pageid=9699077294 83&call_pagepath=Sports/Basketball">very interesting position</a> that makes a trade quite intriguing, and Bibby may not be out of the question.
<OL>
[*]The team they have assembled doesn't have the right chemistry. Individually, they have wonderful players. This team should be going to the playoffs. But they are soft. Everyone is SUCH good friends. Reeves no longer fits what they need at center, due to NBA rule changes, and is way overpaid. PF position is weak, although Othella is a great guy, but they have Swift coming along, even though there are jokes of him being "Slomile." Bibby is a pure PG, and certainly one of the top ten in the game, and is best friends with Dickerson, but has no fire. SAR will be an allstar, but also has no fire. The only guy with fire on this team is Dickerson, and maybe Swift. Dickerson is cheap and has huge potential. They need to break Bibby and Dickerson up up. So, that's why I think those three are going somewhere else (SAR, Bibby, Reeves).

[*] The Grizzlies are losing money. To the tune of 30 million this year. Attendance is down, the team isn't winning, and they can't keep operating the way things are. They would be better off unloading the big salaries, and somehow getting talent that will be future stars, get rid of unhappy players, and rebuild with cheaper guys. So, even though you hate to lose SAR and Bibby, they'll bring in talent and someone will take Reeves and other guys off their hands, just to get Bibby or SAR.

[*]The Grizzlies are headed south. Vancouver can't support an NBA franchise. They have to get the team profitable, streamlined, and with future talent that someone will want to buy and take to another market. Nobody wants to buy a team that doesn't have the potential to win, and is expensive to boot. They have to trade for potential talent and get draft picks.

[*] The can't afford to lose their first round pick. Due to <a href="http://www.vancouversun.com/grizzlies/stories/010109/5070192.html">poor trading in the past</a>, the Grizzlies owe the Pistons a first-round pick as compensation for Thorpe, Vancouver can send that pick, provided it is in the top 18, to Detroit this year. If not, the Pistons get the Grizzlies' first-round pick in 2002, provided only that it's not in the top five, or in 2003, provided it is not first over-all. So, they would love a pick from the Rockets that falls around 18, so they don't lose their lottery pick this year.
[/list=a]

So, yes, I do believe Bibby could be in the deal.

I could see something going like this:

Houston sends Dream, Rogers, a #1 pick (ours or Milwaukee's), and 3 mil to Vancouver, & Thomas to Chicago. We end up with a 3mil exception for some cap relief or use in a trade, if we so choose.

Vancouver sends SAR, Othella, Price, and Massenburg to Houston, and Reeves and Bibby to Chicago.

Chicago sends Miller, Fizer, Crawford, Drew, Benjamin, #1 pick that Houston relieves, and 3 mil to Vancouver.

This works according to RealGM, and makes sense. Each team gets stronger, unload unhappy and bad fitting players and solves various problems.

1 - Dream and Rogers were on their way anway, and we get great value for them with SAR and Othella, although getting stuck with Massenburg and Price, and losing a draft pick and cap room next year. Kenny is a good fit in Chicago, and Carlos can back up three positions in Vancouver. I just wish we could unload the Wiz somehow in the deal. We solve our SF problem, although need to solve center in this year's draft.

Cato/Mo/SAR/Anderson/Francis w/Mobely off the bench again, where we need him most.

2 - Chicago gets a center they like, and lock in the PG position now with a potential future all star now, instead of later. They get much better immediately, with a better fitting backup in Thomas, but lose some rookies who are getting on their nerves.

They actually have their team of the future in Reeves/Brand/Artest/Bibby/Mercer.

3 - Vancouver gets cheap, has great future talent in Fizer, Crawford, Benjamin, a better center for them at less than half the price in Miller, unload unhappy players, some cash, a few great draft picks, and a solid economical player in Drew. This team has more fire, maybe the right chemistry, and they have more draft picks in a deep draft where they get a good big man or top SF. Vancouver fans rebel, Grizzlies sell the team to another market with a great future.

Dream/Swift/Fizer/Dickerson/Crawford

This trade is probably too big to happen, and it would depend on whether Chicago really does likes Reeves, but it would solve problems for each team.


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the more I know, the more I know I don't know...

 

Looks like I'm in the minority, but I'd make that trade. Here's why:

(1) You have to ask yourself, if Reef was a free agent this offseason, would you sign him to his current contract? My answer is yes.

(2) If you sign Reef to the current deal, then you've effectively killed your cap space. For that matter if we signed CWebb this offseason our cap would also be effectively killed.

(3) Our hope is to get a big man in here, and use our cap space this summer. That's going to give us a good forward to go with our outstanding backcourt. We'll still need to fill 1 or 2 spots in the starting lineup, including a starting center.

(4) We won't have any cap space left to get a great center, and really there are none available that appeal to me (outside of maybe Marc Jackson). So we're stuck trying to pick up a journeyman/role player to share minutes with Cato.

(5) Big Country's as good or better than any journeyman center that we could bring in. Did I read that Pervis Ellison was on the list of this season's free agents? Reeves is not a great answer, but we're not going to find a great answer outside the draft.

(6) At least by bringing in Rahim we'd have a young, playoff-caliber team that could improve into a legit contender with experience. Without picking up an inside scorer, I don't think the Rockets make the playoffs this year, next year, or in the forseeable future. The West's too good for us to win with backcourt alone.

It's not the ideal world, and I have some reservations. But I'll leave the cons for others to point out. You ask me if I would do the deal, the answer is yes.

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"Thirty-seven?" -Randall, Clerks
www.clutchtown.com

 

Sherlock, you posted exactly what I was thinking. Exactly! There are other little possibilities as well, such as Tarlac (2 million, tradeable in two weeks, free agent after season).

Question for aelliot, achebe, whomever:
Can Hersey Hawkins' final year of salary be included in a trade (I think it's 3 something mil?)

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Ahhhh... the mixed emotions.

Great post SamC.

There's got to be a way to acquire Shareef and keep everything else clean as well. If Shandon's contract was a damn t-opt, I think the trade would have occurred along time ago.

Reeves isn't that bad, as aelliot and others have reminded, he's just overpaid.

We've played w/ the available options and neglected one variation.

1) Rockets waive Dream for this summer. They sign Webber and somehow retain Anderson as well (he p-opts and then signs the middle class @ 4.5 mill). Mo more than likely goes elsewhere. This is the unlikely event that has everyone drooling.

2) Rockets waive Dream for this summer.
They sign Anderson and Mo Taylor to contracts that fill up the cap. The summer is over.

The team you see on the floor is the team you'll see for 3 or 4 years.

3) Rockets trade Dream to Vancouver for SAR, Reeves and OH. Mo Taylor is gone here just as he would be in #1. The difference is that OH is a better rebounder and already gets along w/ Rudy. Also, SAR plays the #4. Reeves is a better Center than we're going to see for a long time in any scenario.

Just as in this situation, and every other situation, the greatest issue of concern is retaining Anderson w/ this lineup. OH has to be promised backup 4 and backup 5 position, SAR at starting 4, and SA at starting 3.

If you think that you can retain SA in any other beneficial situation for the Rockets, then you have to agree that it is possible to keep him here as well.

This is the team that you'll see on the floor for 3 or 4 years.

4) Both Mo Taylor and SA leave. The Rockets are completely screwed and they're assholes to boot.

Now:

Given that #2, IMO is only a slight improvement over #4, I think that I'll join the Van trade crew. I've been waivering back and forth for some time, but I think it's the best possible argument.

Also, we keep pursuing the path that we'll be stuck w/ the Vancouver lineup for 3 or 4 years. Either way, the Rockets have to define their next 3 or 4 year potential now. There's no guarantee that Mo Taylor is going to sign w/ the Rockets anyway. If OH is a better rebounder, he has a go-to move within 3', he's cheap as hell, then why don't we give him a shot? He can jump hook and shoot the 10'er as well (I may be making up the 10'er ).

SAR has been playing the damn #4 in this small lineup style that Rudy loves. Everybody knocks his defense, but what the hell are we getting from MO? Do you think CD couldn't make SAR, with his incredible talents, that much better?

Bryant Reeves is another strong rebounder. I won't say too much more on Reeves, other than the fact that his contract comes off of the cap the same year that Carter becomes available as a FA.

Ideas? Did I miss something in my hasty summary?

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We're going to stay together until something happens, if something happens. - Sidney Lowe on Shareef's career in Vancouver.

[This message has been edited by Achebe (edited January 17, 2001).]

 

It would be great if Chicago and Bibby were involved in that scenario, Sherlock. But I just can't see Vancouver giving up Bibby AND Reef up at the same time in the same deal. Not without a star player (Kobe) coming back in return. Vancouverites would burn down the stadium.

But maybe if the Rockets acquired Reef and Country, and knowing that the Bulls need the Rockets to surrender their claims to the 1st round pick, the Rockets could work out a deal to move Country, another player/pick, and their claim to the Bulls' #1 to Chicago for cap fodder.

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"ON-BEE-TAH-BULL!!", Hakeem Abdul Olajuwon, alumnus, University of Houston

 

No way, dude. We need a five, not another young star (SAR).

Has it occurred to anyone that we already have Big Country -- he is listed under the name Kelvin Cato in the media guide. Overpaid, underproductive --

no way no way. Get what you need, not just what is out there hoping it will work.

CBFC

Ps. Go Chucky tonite, I'll be there.


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No trade. No.

1) Like Ace said, you had better be certain that this is the team that will go to contention. Because if there are any problems, any at all- we're screwed. Comletely. I am not certain that SAR is the missing piece. Not at all. It's not worth it to sacrifice all future moves in order to see if SAR is what we need.

2) As Elie#17 said, we don't have any problems on offense. Both Steve and Cat are going to be 20+ scorers, very soon. Steve maybe this season. I think in just a couple of seasons Steve will be averaging around 25 and Cat 20-22. We don't need another star scoring machine. We don't really need much more scoring from the 4 than Mo is giving us. If we continue to have the excellent production Mo is giving is, and have a sweet shooting 3 to open up the floor (like the pre-slump Wiz; maybe Lanky?), our offense is fine. What we need in the 4/5 position is a big strong, intimidating enforcer. We need a combo like Geiger and Ratliff in Philly. What we need, basically, is the Cato of preseason '99.

SAR is not the missing piece. He's an awesome player. We've got a couple of those.

3) SAR is not worth risking the loss of Shandon, Mo and Moochie. The Rockets agree and that's why the deal won't happen.


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Jeff,

How is SA or Moochie's status affected by a trade or cap space? We'll have early bird rights on both o f them, so we can offer them deals worth up to $4.5M/year. Obviously that's way more than Moochie will get, so he's not a problem. As I said before, I can't see Shandon getting much more than Mobley got, so $4.5M should be about right.

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What I'm trying to figure out is what makes people think Webber would come here!? Winning? The Kings are ahead of us and are young, he can go to NY and other teams to do that. His family? I doubt if that is a big deal in signing with a team. With the money he has he can get easy acess there. Money? The Kings can pay more then we do. Why risk everything on a chance to get Webber when we'll just be one of a bunch of teams, with those teams having a stronger chance of getting him!? And say we do get Webber what then? Granted he is a great player, but we would lack a center, and SF and the inability to get one. Not saying I wouldn't want Webber, but why not get Rahim, dump Big Country (even though he can contribute if we keep him), and build towards a more spread offense, instead of dumping everything for a small chance to get Webber? People may say it's worth it, but would it be worth it to lose Dream, Mo, and possibly Shandon for nothing if Webber goes to another team knowing you could have got Rahim, kept Mo and possibly Shandon?

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"I have a scale at home and it only goes up so far, I love that scale!"
- Charles Barkley
TNT Studios