In hindsight, I definetely make the trade. We need a franchise player. At the time I wasn't for it because I really though we had a shot at the Championship this year w/ Chuck-Dream-Mobley-Dickerson-Othella-Pip as a nucleous. In hindsight it was a good trade for both teams, especially with the injuries and Scottie.
Hmmm? Let's see Duhdakota and Pass 1st, think 2nd... right now we have a current line up of: Francis Anderson Williams Thomas Olajuwon Our record is 24 and 35 Vancouvers current line up is: Bibby Dickerson Abdur-rahim Harrington Reeves Their record is 18 and 41 If all you care about Da' is winning, then the 30% win/loss percentage of Vancouver should be an answer to your question of who is better off after that trade. Also Pass 1st, I can only assume from some of your comments (Bibby is a better "point guard")that you agree with Dadakota to some extent. I'm not even going to get into whether or not Bibby is a better point gaurd because you're entitled to your opinion, but if Bibby is better what's the deal with their record. I mean you guys seem to think that the Rocks' would have a better record with the lineup of: Drew (Bibby's definitely better than him) Dickerson Anderson (Abdur-Rahim. Taller is better! right Dadakota) Othella Dream (Has not even been a factor this year) So why can't the Griz' win with the lineup they have? Winning is everything right? Would we really be in a better position to win now or in the future w/o the trade? I think not. [This message has been edited by O-dawg (edited March 07, 2000).]
GOOD LORD.... This concept has grown tiresome for me. Dickerson vs. Francis and all the buyer's remorse that came with that trade. This is Steve Francis' team. Hakeem said it, Chuck said it. As stated before, Francis had 1 yr. of D1 ball, and is in his rookie year in the NBA. Give the kid a break. For his level of experience, he has strapped this team on his back and carried it to where it is now, albeit in the perverbial West cellar. Maybe Stevie isn't a superstar YET. How many ROOKIES can you name that are/were? Very few. He is a special talent, and those don't come around often. Do I regret the trade with Vancouver for ANY reason??? Hell no.
Hoop T, SuperStar Rockets of the past. Hakeem Olajuwon Moses Malone Elvin Hayes I think that is it, the rest of the SuperStars were not at that level when they got here. Barkley, Drexler, Pippen, Barry. O-Dawg, I merely posed the question to see what people think. I am happy with Francis' development to a point. I do think our record would be better if we had not made the trade...THIS year. I hope he develops into a SuperStar, but right now he is on the cusp of plain ole Stardom. DaDakota
BTW everybody, the Francis trade was before the Pippen trade. If we hadn't traded for Francis, we would have asked for different players for Pippen. We would be a completely different team My guess is that they would have traded Pippen for a Steve Smith/Glen Rice type player and filled out the rest of the roster with scrubs and rejects. Bottom line: We would definitely have a better record this year if we hadn't made the trade. However, I think this team has more potential for the future, and I don't regret the Stevie trade one bit. There are very few opportunities to grab a Superstar player (Read: Clippers), so anytime the chance presents itself you snatch it. No, I'm happy with how things turned out, and so will the naysayers, soon enough. [This message has been edited by fatty fat fat (edited March 07, 2000).]
O-Dawg I agree with your perspective. DuDakota, I just don't see where you are coming from. Othella and MD have two guys around them (Rahim and Bibby) clearly better than anyone we have (at least that stayed healthy) other than Francis. Rahim (other than the multi-position KG) is the best young small forward in the league and Bibby is the 3rd best guard to come in the league in the last two years (Carter, Francis, then Bibby). The fact that we have a better record than a more talented Vancouver team (outside of Francis) clearly shows that the trade helped us in terms of W & L's this year. Would a Vancouver team with Rahim, Francis, Bibby and CBA fill ins have more wins then they do?? I think the answer to that question is yes they would. Not only was the trade good for the future, we have a better team today because of it. If we are thinking about wins this year, the trade that hurt us was the Pippen trade. A team of Francis, SA, Pippen, Barkley & Hakeem with Drew, Mobes, KT and whoever else off the bench would be fighting for the best record in the Midwest right now (barring injury). But we do have a better future because of that trade, so in my mind it is not worth wallowing over any more. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited March 07, 2000).]
After the Rockets realized that Pippen never wanted to be the focus of the team, they had to move him. For him to have stayed and taken 40% of the salary cap while being only a supporting player would have been intolerable. Mango
O-dawg gets it. DaD, great topic. We should all put this behind us now. I want to relive another championship.
O-Dawg, Bibby's assist to turnover ratio is superior to Francis'. Bibby puts up more assists (7.8 v. 6.8), shoots a higher percentage (.440 v. .422), and has a slightly better free-throw percentage (.793 v. .783). Francis leads in points (17 v. 14.5), rebounds (5.2 v. 3.6) and total steals by 2 (81 v. 79). So as far numbers most pertinent to a point guard, Bibby wins the numbers game. So I did think before I posted, and didn't base by ideas on emotional attachment to the great one, Steve Francis. He's our best player, and a better overall player than Bibby-and for the moment not by much-but Francis, believe it or not, is not the greatest thing than sliced bread.
Pass 1st, I'm not a die hard statistician. As a matter of fact I am of the opinion that stats can never tell the whole story, and in many cases can be misleading. But I'll play along just for the heck of it. Ok, per your numbers (But with a little different spin): 1.Assists-Bibby gets one more per game than Francis (and Bibby is on a team with a better starting five and arguably better finishers). 2.Shooting-Bibby shoots two percent better than Francis (I wonder who has taken more shots. The answer of course is Francis, why because unlike Bibby whose main role is that of ball distribution, Francis is also depended on to be a scorer as well. You see they have different roles). 3.Free-throws-Bibby is one percent better. Big deal (Again who shoots more? Francis by 62 and Bibby is still only one percent better). Francis is a better scorer, rebounder, and if steals are any indication (again stats can be misleading, but we are playing the "stats game") Francis is the better defender. So with all that being said and leaving out "emotion" and the fact that Francis is more explosive and exciting player than Bibby could ever dream of being. Bibby is simply a disappointing #1 draft pick who is superior to no one. Who would you rather have as the starting point gaurd of your team? Who would you rather have period? If its any answer other than Francis I give up and lets just agree to disagree on this one. [This message has been edited by O-dawg (edited March 08, 2000).]
O-dawg doesn't want to play the stats game and he is quite right -- it can be misleading. I have insisted on the unnecessarily long thread "Michael Dickerson Stats" that Bibby and Francis are totally different species of ball players. However, once you do open up the stats can of worms, you'd best check they don't crawl all over your argument. Neither O-dawg or Pass 1st mention that Bibby is a far superior 3 point shooter than Francis (.390 to .317). Only 4 regular point guards have a better 3-point % than Bibby. In Francis’ (and Bibby's) defense, it is very difficult for point guards to have a really good % because they are often launching their three pointers as the shot-clock winds down or from half-court as quarters end (Bibby is almost always the guy who does this for the Griz and I assume Francis has the same job). As far as the steals go, someone must have used figures from two different time zones. Bibby has 96, Francis has 85. Even per game, Bibby is marginally better than Francis, so there goes the better defense worm. Steve is an incredible rebounder for a point guard -- you should have made more of that point. The other really wormy one is that Bibby has some kind of great starting group to work with. The two teams overall field goal percentage is almost exactly the same (.444 for the Griz and .441 for the Rocks) and the other 4 starters for the Griz have a combined .456 versus .454 for Cato, Mobley, Anderson & Dream (these guys seem to play the most minutes for you presently, I took Barkley out of this -- he had a .479 mark which makes Steve's group even better). In other words, Bibby and Francis are delivering the ball to almost exactly the same kind of shooters. But the most incredibly wormy method is the comparison "of only 1 assist per game more" so it doesn't mean anything. There are "only" less than 1 assist per game difference between John Stockton, Gary Payton and Mike Bibby, but I wouldn't even begin to suggest that Bibby is in their league as a great playmaker(yet). Bibby has shown that since Brian Hill was fired, that he is definitely worthy of his status as a number 2 pick. His numbers for the first 22 games of the season were very "disappointing" but since then they have been overall definitely among the top 7 or 8 point guards in the league. We who watch him on a regular basis love his game as much as you love Francis' but for totally different reasons. Knowledgeable basketball people around the league recognize him for what he does best -- stir the drink -- and they appreciate Francis for the fact that he is the often the whole milkshake. A team needs both types of players to win championships. I think you guys who love Steve's game so much mistake excitement for effect. Bibby isn't a thriller but since Hollins took over, he has made a pretty woeful Grizzlies squad darn competitive most nights(last night's debacle against NY was an aberration). We would be as lost without him as you would be without Francis. Francis and Bibby play a totally different game -- Francis is high risk/high reward (most turnovers per game in the league and most burn your opponents with brilliance games -- on a par with Carter here), Bibby is in the "classic" point guard mode and for a 22 year old, he is a gem with a great future of a totally different kind than Francis. The only people who don't seem to recognize this are a few Rockets fans who need to puff up their boy Stevie by putting someone else down (actually they're probably puffing up their own fragile egos because Steve's ego seems just fine) . Hey, I'm a Griz guy and after Steve straight-armed us, I think you could understand me dissing him with any tricky stat I could muster. But I can see Francis for the incredible talent that he is - a fantastic leaper, great dribbler who'll probably learn to make better decisions on his shooting and passing and compete for a MVP someday. But putting down Bibby without facts just so Francis looks better now is really going too far. Saying one guy is a far better player than the other is unsupportable statistically and way too premature at this stage of their careers. Let's just watch both talents and appreciate them for what they could become.
GYHS, the only thing you don't bring up is that it is most fair to compare Bibby stats last year to Stevie's this year. When you compare those figures and consider Bibby greater college prep you come to think not only is Francis slightly better right now as a player (the scoring and rebouding is enough higher) but the difference is likely to increase. I agree Bibby isn't a bust, and looks to be the 3nd best PG to come out in the last 2 years, but there is a big gap between Marbury & Francis to him. Of all them, Francis actually has by far the best rookie numbers.
Sir S., I didn't get into this because I don't think this comparison actually favours Francis and I didn't want to be accused of taking cheap shots: Steve's birthdate is 2/21/78 Bibby's is 5/13/78 Marbury's is 2/20/77 My reading of that is that Marbury came in to the league much younger than either Mike or Steve (he played in 96/97!), so I'm not going to give his rookie year much weight because he was such a puppy. He actually produced some pretty fair numbers (7.8 assists, 15.8 ppg and .354 3 pt. %). Bibby comes into the league more than a full year younger than Francis, into a hurry-up training camp, shortened lockout season on a pretty lousy, very young team --again not a very typical "rookie" evaluation. Even still he puts up some decent numbers (better than Jason Williams on the hot-to-trot, experienced Kings). Francis comes into a veteran-laden team with a full training camp and a full year older than Bibby. I don't know about you but I increased my physical strength by leaps and bounds in my early twenties. Age and strength is probably much more significant than college years when you have to go up against mature men in the NBA. Steve didn't play top college ball as much as Bibby but he came into the league with more physical advantages. Marbury at the same age was better than both of them -- he is an incredibly strong point guard. Stop stretching for Stevie superiority reasons -- they're both friggin' good players who'll prove their real worth in time.
GYHS, I agree with you, for the most part, as far as the Bibby/Francis stat comparison goes. Remember though that I was using Pass 1st's stats. One thing that we can definitely agree on is the fact that both of these players are good and that not only are they different types of players, but they also serve different roles on thier teams. The fact that your are a Griz fan and at least attempted to come at this comparison objectively merits commendation. At any rate this thread has turned from the topic and seeing as you are a Griz fan I would be interested to know how you feel about the trade now that you've had a chance to see all the parties involved play.
O-dawg, thanks. Usually I get roasted on this board for even suggesting that the Grizzlies might have some potentially good players. I think the trade looks like it is probably going to be very good for both teams -- if that's possible without declaring an outright winner this early. I think the X factor for the Grizzlies is how good Othella turns out to be. When I first heard we were getting him and Dickerson, I was overjoyed because of the way I had seen him pick up the slack when the Rocks had the injuries last year. This year, he has been a disappointment to me. He still has that deadly little hook and in a few games he's looked like a real steal. In far too many games, he seems to take himself out of the game with meaningless fouls, travelling calls and poor passes then he seems to pout (did you guys ever see this?). His defense is usually quite a liability against the big power forwards in the West but then all of a sudden he'll rebound like a fiend and even block some shots for a quarter or so. He has the tools but he's got to play a more mature game. If he fulfills his potential, I think the Grizzlies are the winners because of his sweetheart contract but on a really good team, he is only a sixth man type right now. I am convinced that MD is going to be close to an all-star. Last night, he held Iverson down to 20 points (the second time he's been extremely effective against him this year). His moves are not super flashy but he can embarass a lot of guys with pure speed (McGrady & Sprewell couldn't handle him off the dribble and they're not the only ones). His outside shot is really sweet and if he ever works up a pull-up jumper(like Spree) he's going to average 22+ a game. His game absolutely blossomed when Brian Hill's walk-it-up offense was ditched along with him. Man, is it ever fun to see MD and Bibby run the break -- they say a greyhound gets up to 45 mph in 3 strides -- Dickerson could catch his tail. Brent Price is a hell of a nice man but he needs some better players to feed with his reckless driving style. Our guys never seem to be able to hang on to his passes and they can't seem to find him for his nice three stroke, he always seems to have to create it himself -- right now I'd say he is somewhat of an albatross for us with his contract. I really like character guys so I'm hoping he finds a role with us. Antoine is a hoot and for the million he costs us, I hope he hangs in for another year. For the Rockets, everything hinges on whether Francis can find a way to make other players better. I thought he would have been better off splitting time at the point with a good experienced guy like, say, Derek Harper and then getting some minutes at the 2 to see what his best position is. I have been surprised at how quickly he seems to be adapting to his role considering he didn't play the point all that much in college. If he continues controlling the impulse to be the whole show, the Rockets will be the winners on this trade. I have said it before and Rocket fans probably don't believe a Grizzlie guy when he says this but Francis has the potential to be better than Marbury, maybe even Payton! Still and all, that's potential and we'll have to wait several years before we know the true winner of the trade. Steve Francis really got under Vancouver's fans skin with his needless comments about our city, so I hope you take this into consideration. It's real hard to evaluate a guy objectively when he didn't even give your city a chance and then he comes out and says God told him not to come. Like the Big Fella doesn't like our accents or what? Bibby pouted on draft day,too, but he smartened up real quick and now he loves the city and the fans reciprocate. Like Barkley was saying the other day, some guys on a team will always resent the superstar so if Francis shows the same lack of respect and tact to his peers that he showed Vancouver, the Rockets will be in trouble. Steve's game is a marvel, it's what's between his ears that is the big question mark for this entire trade. Stu Jackson has had several public Q & A sessions with the season ticket holders, and I believe one of the main reasons he didn't make Francis come to Vancouver was the lack of maturity he exhibited. He told us very clearly before the draft that this guy was a super-talent (he also pegged Odom's gifts perfectly) but he wasn't going to have either of them with their immaturity on an already young team. Jackson planned to trade Francis all along if he got a great deal. When Stevie did his little snit, that sealed it. We got exactly what we needed, a 2 with great potential, a decent PF and a backup to Bibby (oh yeah, a #1 thrown in too!). I think it was a master stroke of Jackson's to get all this for a guy he didn't really need on his young team. When you consider that the next best deal was probably Stackhouse/Vaught for Francis, it sure looks even better. If Othella wakes up and Stevie doesn't we're the really big winners. Other way around and you guys win the Lotto. If they both play up to their potential, we'll meet in the Western Finals someday.
GYHS, nice post. But not to put a damper on things, but I would be real disappointed with my team this year. They have more talent than any non-playoff team in the west and have way underachieved in what should have been at least a “minor” breakthrough year. I would have expected around a 500 record of a team that added MD, Oth, Long & Carr to a nucleus of Abdur-Rahim, Bibby, Lopez, and BC, especially as the key players have more experience (Rahim now has 3 or 4 years under his belt and the back-court have two years) and MD has clearly improved his game. IMHO, I see the team as hanging on by a thread, and if Rahim or even Bibby get disgruntled with the losing it will be back to a .1 winning clip and a big-time abyss.
Sir S. I agree with you completely. Coming into this season I thought we had the elements for a close to .500 team. Stu Jackson said he expected the Grizzlies to be the most improved team in the league by far before the season began. Brian Hill said the same thing at the same ticket holders Q & A. session. Hill got gassed because he wasn't even close to delivering on that potential. My sources at the club say Jackson definitely wanted to do it 3 weeks before he did but the ownership fiasco with Willy Wal-Mart left it in limbo. I think if we had offed Hill early on and Hollins had gotten Bibby playing the up-tempo style he often plays now, we might even have more wins than you guys. We are living in fear about the "Clipper" syndrome developing here. The guys love playing for Hollins but if they don't finish this season with some encouraging wins, the agents, girlfriends and old coachs will start putting pressure on these guys to get off the Titanic. Country looked like he was going to be a lot better this year but he went down twice with same knee he hurt last year. We're stuck with him and I think he's playing with major pain a lot of time, so I think they've got to learn to win with him only playing 15 to 20 minutes. Shareef is one hell of a mature 23 year old -- he's deliberately sacrificied his post-up game to let Harrington and Dickerson shine. The guy used to get to the line more than just about anyone but now he has to start from out on the wing a lot and his outside shot isn't quite there yet. If Reef bails on us, we're hooped but if he sticks it out and we either get a big man in the draft or Country comes around in the off-season, Bibby and Dickerson will want to sign up again. The new owner, Heisley, looks like a great guy and has said he has no problem with paying Portland type money if he sees the results on the floor. You can tell this team really enjoys playing together and I'm just praying they all want to hang in to see where this thing goes.
Damn, I guess I had fogotten how young Marbury still is. That says a lot about him. I guess I would think twice before drafting Francis over Marbury if it came down to that. As for Bibby, I wouldn't underestimate his greater seasoning going into the NBA. Also, being on a bad team you would think he would have more of an oppertunity to score, which he didn't do that well last year. Overall, I wouldn't think twice before taking Francis over Bibby or any ther PG not named Marbury who has arrived in the last 3 years.
