Would you have called a foul at the end of the Spurs/Lakers game 4?

No offense, but that just can't be right... Go watch some YouTube videos and you'll see that starting the dribbling motion allows the player to move his first foot. Or simpler, imagine the player taking one dribble before moving his foot in a drive, it's just unnatural.

What was indisputably a travel, however, was Tim Duncan's dunk in the second half (think it was in third quarter, but I am not certain).

 

i don't know, human?

 

CLEARLY NO

what are you watching? even in slow motion the sequence of events is clear

his RIGHT FOOT is the pivot foot. he moves it both in sequence with fisher's hit on him AND in the motion of dribbling. watch his right hand with the ball at the same time he moves his pivot. where is fisher's left hand i n relation to barry's body at the moment barry lifts his right foot? FOUL

but even assuming you see something wack and FISHER ACTUALLY NEVER HIT BARRY AT ALL@!!! is that a travel in that case?

well let's see... the RULE is so that you cannot move your pivot THEN start your dribble

so what's the legal definition of dribble?

ie dribbling is the motion of advancing the ball... each ball bounce is NOT dribble it's the motion itself, if barry is "dribbling" in sequence to moving his pivot foot all he has to do is be in the motion of dribbling.

clearly in the clip barry is in the motion of "dribbling" the ball when he moves his pivot ergo NOT TRAVELLING

SO YOURE WRONG O H N O CAPS

 

I refereed High School and AAU ball for 10 years, when a player establishes a pivot foot if you lift that foot up BEFORE the dribble it is a travel.

It is the same as switching pivot feet.

That is how we were taught to interpet it.....of course...we called palming too....so...



I am not wrong, they make that call in the NBA all the time.....it is a travel...

DD

 

Pending clarification...

 

THAT WAS EASILY A TWO SHOT FOUL!

 

Kobe took 23 shots per night and only avg 1.5FT, did you see him whine?

 

ClutchCityReturns,

You are still saying it wrong. You can totally lift the pivot foot. You just can't set it back down before the dribble. You are allowed 1 1/2 steps, not only 1. Moving your free foot is one step. Lifting your pivot foot is the 1/2 step. Setting the pivot down is 2 steps = traveling.

that said, Barry travelled. I agree. He established a pivot foot, and then reset the pivot foot before dribbling.

 

So you're saying I could stand there (with my left foot as the pivot), lift my right foot and stretch over 5 feet to the right, place it down, lift my left foot and bring it over without touching it to the ground, then dribble the ball...and that's not traveling?

It's an exaggerated example, but it seems incredibly wrong.

In the meantime, I'll delete my last post to avoid confusion.

 

nearly every fastbreak layup is 1 1/2 steps.

Example of right handed layup:

The player is running;
he stops dribbling usually with the right foot as the pivot foot;
takes a long stride with his left foot;
uses his left foot a the launching foot;
he right foot swings through and rises up as he jumps;
the player shoots the layup while airborn.
the right foot never hits the ground again.

 

Just to clarify it is 1 1/2 steps when shooting or when passing etc...

Once you lift your pivot foot, you can not start a dribble.

This is correct though the rule has been bastardized so much that they let them get two full steps in most games now.


^^^^^^ is a travel...every day and twice on Sundays.

DD

 

Of course, but that's after the dribble, not at the beginning. I do believe the ruling is different.

If it's not, I'm going to start jumping off my pivot foot next time I get trapped by a double team and when I land safely 6 feet away from it I'll start dribbling and put my foot back down.

 

Ok, I just called a good friend of mine who still refs, and he said that Barry traveled, he established the right foot as the pivot, and lifted it off the ground, which is fine, but when he put it back down, it is a travel.

And he is a MAJOR Spurs fan, I lost $100 to him on my bet that the Rockets would have a better regular season record....I have $50 with him on the Lakers vs Spurs, so I can get half back if Kobe and company can close em out.

DD

 

That would be a travel, once your pivot foot leaves the ground, you can:

a. pass it

b. Shoot it

That is it, if you land back on the ground with that pivot foot, it is a travel.

DD

 

yeah if you could lift your pivot foot then dribble, then on those plays where a guy comes off a pick, goes up to shoot, realizes he's going to get blocked and then starts dribbling, that would be OK b/c they dribble before their pivot foot hits the ground. but those are always a travel, so i would say you have to dribble before lifting the pivot foot.

on the other hand, i am guessing a huge percentage of the time, drives are started where the pivot foot technically leaves the ground before the dribble and it is never called. while barry got his pivot foot all the way back on the ground before dribbling, trying to justify the non-foul with a travel is even worse than thinking the refs were going to call a foul and only didn't b/c it's the lakers. not only do people do what barry did all game long w/o being called, but he was basically bumped just as his pivot foot was coming down and normally the benefit of the doubt is going to the foul. and at the end of the game, they are EXTREMELY unlikely to call that travel, moreso than not calling that foul.

the correct justification for the non-call is simply that it was the end of the game and from the beginning of time, in just about all levels of basketball, whistles get swallowed at the end of the game. doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong, it just is. and that's why barry didn't get a foul called for him.

if that happened to the rockets i would be mad i'm sure, but i would know that we weren't the first and wouldn't be the last to not get that call and that it's just part of the game. that's what makes the kirilenko/scola flop so infuriating, that they actually did make a call when they never do.

 

It was not a travel. Not an NBA anyway. He started dribbling while he lifted his pivot foot. True, the ball had not hit the floor when he moved. But how many times that kind of play is called travel? There are way more blatant travel that are not called in the NBA.

And it was a foul 99% of the time. Barry did not have to "sell" it. Defender leaving his feet and making contact. 99% defensive foul. There are way more blatant dribbling into a standing still defender and are called defensive foul.

To sum it up. 99% of the time Barry's moved would not have been called travel. 99% of the time Fisher's move would have been called foul.

So why was it not called?
Because it's the last second? Because it's not a superstar? Because he didn't "sell" (meaning "flop")?

I call it BS.

 

Why is a foul not called because it is the last second shot?

Because the refs don't want to decide the game?

You mean DECIDING NOT to call is not a decision?

 

The Spurs made the mental mistake of giving the ball to BBarry to make a game tying/winning play. Thus they deserved to lose. It's like going all in against AA with 37 off suit. I don't care how the dealer mistakenly forgot to burn a card on the flop. You deserve to lose. Fisher probably could have body slammed BB and not gotten a fouled called.

 

But the way I described it, my pivot foot wouldn't hit the floor again. I'd jump to the right using my left foot (pivot) to push off the ground and then land on my right foot without putting the left foot (pivot) down again.

According to the rules being presented to me in this thread, that would be perfectly legal. It would also be ridiculous.

 

I'm not aware of any citation in the NBA rules that stipulate that the bounce "defines" or "establishes" the dribble. every definition ive seen talks about dribbling being the continuous process of advancing the ball to yourself by successive taps and bounces. the continous process being paramount because you cant pick up your dribble or take excessive steps. I understand the idea of watching when the ball bounces or when you tap the ball as shorthand when watching kids play ball but that's not the legal definition of dribbling, unless that's was established later in NBA rules I dont know about.

dribbling didn't originally exist as Naismith envisioned, you could only advance the ball by passing to other teammates. later people invented the idea of "passing" to yourself via the floor (you "pass" to the floor the bounce is the floor "passing" it back to you). at the time of contact and as he lifts his pivot, barry is clearly in the process of moving the ball forward in a dribble.

in any case the league office itself admitted that was a blown call. you can argue that the proper call would be a 2 shot not a 3 shot violation... exactly for the reason I stated above... that he was in the process of dribbling at the moment of the foul. if you argue the opposite, that he was in the process of shooting or preparing to shoot, and dribbled only after the contact (and therefore was not in the process of dribbling before he lifted his foot) then yeah the proper call is a shooting (3 point) foul