Would the Rockets already be in WC Finals if they had Gay instead of Battier?

Lol now you attempt to "answer" the question it after I posed it in the other thread. Better as in more ppg. Take the 3 years before Battier got here and the 3 years since he's been here as the time periods for comparison. Kobe also scored more before Phil and Pau joined the Lakers. Yet, the Rockets without Battier were able to hold him to less ppg than the Rockets with Battier. I'll wait for your explanation.

 

You can't grasp reality can you. Reality is that Gay has been in the NBA for 3 years and has shown what he's about. What does it say about a player that only plays hard in certain situations? Shane Battier always played hard even when he was a Grizz too. And who says it's automatic that Gay will suddenly be putting an all out effort if put on a winning team? You hope that happens, that's all you can do.

You're not the first or last who based their opinion on wishful thinking and speculation that X might turn out this way if X was put someplace else.

 

I think Gay would have this iverson-effect on the team, where he scores a lot but hurts the team by making the defense worse. I just miss him at the games where the team just isn´t able to score consistently.

 

Get real, Lee. Shane Battier is a million times more important to this team than your incredible three examples (is *that* best you could think of?) were to their teams. There is a reason that Tim Thomas and his ilk keeps bouncing around the league and it's not because he is such a big asset. I guess the clue is- what happened to the players you cited? Two were out of the league within two years and your boy is a benchwarmer on the Knicks.

Of course, teams can use talented knuckleheads, but you overvalue them and undervalue Battier. I would say it is a lot easier to find offensive wing players then guys who will sell out on d. If you want to use the Suns as an example, check out what happened to their respective teams in the Raja Bell /Boris Diaw for Jason Richardson deal. The Bobcats got better and the Suns (and this was before Amare's injury) declined. Hell, check out which teams keep winning championships....they are usually at the top of the league in defense.

Here's the bigger point about this deal- the Rockets don't have the cap flexibility to get Luis Scola if Stromile isn't thrown in on the trade. I'll take Shane Battier and Luis Scola every day over Rudy Gay and Stromile Swift. On a team with Yao Ming and McGrady there is no way that Gay would have had the freedom to develop his game. Those players and certainly not that coach would have not deferred to him for a millisecond. Knowing his reputation for being a bit sensitive, how would have Gay reacted?

Last point, Lee: you don't seem to get that cap space and flexibility is a bigger value than having some scrub sitting on the end of the bench like Francisco Elson. I don't see how anybody could quibble with how Morey has put the roster together.

 

Sure, lets post some obscure statistics that anybody with an elementary quantitative background can discredit. You're "analysis" is dishonest as well. For the 3 years that Battier has been here Kobe's Lakers have played against the Rockets 11 times in the regular season. His shooting % for those games was 44% and the Lakers have won 7 out of 11 of those games. He's also averaged 32.8 ppg and 9.72 fta.

Now let's look at the 3 years before Battier arrived. The Rockets played the Lakers 10 times during that time period in the regular season with the Lakers winning 6 of those games. His shooting % for those games was 42.3% (almost 2% less than what it has been since Battier has been a Rocket). Kobe averaged 7 fta per game during this time period (almost 3 less fta per game than the Battier era). His scoring average for these 3 seasons against the Rockets was 24.5 ppg (8.3 ppg less than during Battier's tenure as a Rocket).

What the numbers say is that Kobe has performed better against the Rockets across the board since Battier has arrived here. More ppg, more fta (which means he's blowing by Battier), and higher shooting %, and slightly higher winning %.

So the question still remains: Can you tell me why Kobe has done better against the Rockets after Shane arrived here than he did before the Battier era began?

 

Wait, aren't you the guy that spent all season pissing and moaning about how terrible Battier was all season long? If that was you, I would tread lightly around here with insults, seeing how stupid you look now

If it wasn't you, apologies

 

Oh, it was you. HA

I guess you know more than all of the analysts and ex-players and coaches. If you look beyond the stats, look at the types of shots Shane is forcing Kobe to take. Yeah, he's making a lot of them, but Kobe isn't getting to the line often and is making ridiculous shots.

Please stop embarrassing yourself. You've done a good enough job already

 

Start off with how much better Kobe Bryant and the LA Lakers have been on the offensive end in the last 3 years, compared to the previous 3 years. They're a different team, and much more difficult to guard. You can't look at his numbers years to year and conclude that's all on the defender.

 

How many times has Rudy Gay brought Memphis to the playoffs?

 

A corollary to this thread:

Would the Rockets already be in the WC Finals if they had Swift instead of Hayes?

 

I think the real question is if we can some how package a deal that gets tmac out and Rudy Gay in. Rudy will be a restricted free agent pretty soon either this off-season or next, I would not be shocked if Morey was able to get a deal packaged like that. We all know Memphis likes having cap space, I think they would love to have a 23 mil deduction in payroll and sell some T-mac Jerseys in the process.

 

I'd go for that.

Rudy Gay has to be coveted because of the potential that's there. I don't think, at this stage of his career, that he's contributed to winning to the extent Battier has. But we all know what Battier will give us. He's never going to be a go-to guy, or a guy who'll manufacture offense when things aren't going well. You need those types of players as well if you want to have an elite team, and Rudy Gay fits that mold more. Personally, it would be really interesting to see how he would grow as player surrounded by a defensive-minded, veteran squad, and playing under a quality head coach.

 

Since u seem to have short term memory loss, i'll refresh. When i talked about trading for tim thomas and his 6m salary it was because of a couple of things. First, i thought brooks should start at pg. Yeah that was me since you like bringing up old things, but never bring those things up. I thought they shouldve traded rafer and francis for thomas. Why thomas? To give the rox a 6'10 odom type of matchup player. A guy that can shoot the 3 and take big players off the dribble and guard the odom type of players. I never said anything about him being the star of the team. Rafer 4.6 + francis 2.6 > than thomas 6m. When i talked about Davis or a davis type, since you tend to forgetthat one also, it was to give the rox a big swing that was athletic, can shoot the 3 and get to the basket. That guy was meant to backup shane and tracy and if one goes down, you have a guy that can play 30+ mins and be effective. Like i also said it didnt have to be davis, it couldve been barnes, evans, or someone that could slash. It turns out to be the same type of guy, just younger in Wafer. So you can keep bringing up what i said and i dont mind, as long as you bring up all of it.

 

Oh yeah it was him. Stuck in the Hall of Infamy. See sig.

 

Thats the point a little. Tracy was a really good defender in toronto and in orlando and in houston when he wanted to be. most of it was because he was long and athletic. If a guy will take to coaching and use his tools properly, you never know what kind of defensive player he could become. Alot of young players who come into the league as underclassmen arent good defenders, its something you have to work on. Really , what dumb about this whole argument is, it didn't have to be gay. On draft day and leading up to the draft, alot of people wanted brewer or jj. I wanted brewer because i thought his game translated into the nba well. Long arms, great size, super athletic, slashing, hard working and got better every year in college. He's gotten better every yr in the pro's, is a good defender, still athletic, very coachable to boot. What was wrong with him? I can almost guarantee, just as jvg blew our chance to get roy anyways, he shorted this team by not drafting a young guy with upside who is producing now. Hell morey even said he was surprised by how quickly gay has progressed. I guarantee this also, if adelman was the coach, he wouldve been glad to have gay or brewer no matter how close they seemed to be.

 

am i being punk'd...gay so sucks and battier is such a stud

 

Nothing wrong with Brewer, I was hoping we'd take him as well. But I understood why they went with Battier. The Rockets were in win-now mode, and realistically Brewer or Gay would probably have taken 2-3 years to contibute on a winning team to the extent a veteran like Battier could be expected to. As fate would have it, the Rockets have been pummeled by injuries to their stars (Yao, Tracy) and some non-production from other key acquisitions (Wells, Snyder, James, Francis) since Battier joined the team. As a result, they've been inconsistent during the regular seasons and never got that high playoff seed and favorable first round matchup.