MacBeth, Since there are so many dumb trade threads, I respond with great reluctance but... Are you telling me the Mavs wouldn't be outrageous with Yao as their Center? The Kings run an uptempo game with the footspeed of Vlade, Brad Miller and Peja (and Bibby's no Nash or Kidd in baseline to baseline speed...in fact, he's probably slower than JWill). IMO, NBA primary breaks are run by Guards and SF'S and PF's with enough footspeed (KG, Dirk, Stoudamire). The trick is to get a team that is committed to developing a secondary break and Yao is fast enough to contribute to any early offense.
Even secondary breaks ( which is, BTW, the greatest strength of Roy Williams coached players/teams, IMO) would be slowed by Yao. It's not necessarily a problem, it's just a lack of exploitability. Chandler would be an excellent finisher, however, for your intial break. Just that secondaries would be very slow developing with Yao as the last man down. If we made this move, I would follow it up with trading Cat, Cato etc. and looking for a shooting sf in the Rashard Lewis/better Mike Miller mold. Play JJ at sf, and pick up a defender/distributor in the offseason. BTW, Peja is deceptively quick,but moreover he knows wehre to run to, as do Vlade and from what I see, Miller.
Neither Hinrich nor Chandler have ever done anything. Potential is worth millions, but doesn't get you a championship or a cup of coffee. I love both those guys, but to trade a proven all-star for "that" would be absurd and a mistake we would live to regret. Francis' trade value is only a tier below Paul Pierce, Dirk, and that tribe (who are a tier below the Duncan's and Garnett's). I would consider trading Stevie for Hin/Chand, but only if we got their next 1st rounder, too. Face it. Talent like Francis does not come along every draft. Deal it wisely.
The history of championsip teams is littered with exactly the kinds of trades you here oppose; Vlade for Kobe, the Celts getting McHale, etc.
Chandler is an "IF" guy due to his back problems. I would love this trade otherwise. When Chandler has been healthy and receiving 20-25 minutes a game the past year, he's been averaging over 10 rebounds a game with 13 points a night. Hinrich looks like a valuable point guard in the Steve Nash mold-- not quite a pure point guard, but with more passing skills than your average point guard brings to the NBA today. He's not shy, and not afraid to take the open shot and can create his own shot. I guess what I'm saying is I love the potential for Kirk Hinrich, and would love the potential for Chandler if not for his recurring back problems. If this trade was on the table, I would have to give it serious, serious consideration.
Too many trade threads. Why do Bulls trade Hirinch and Chandler for SF3? ROX must stand out by themselves. The biggest problem for ROX is they need a starting PF. CATO cannot shoot and cannot defend as PF. That is why ROX suck at the offense end.
I've followed Chandler pretty closely since he is on my fantasy team, he has now missed 30 games due to a lower back problem, and after many minor set backs, he's hoping to rejoin the team on the upcoming road trip. Personally, I like the trade alot, but the question I have is, are you ready to go back to the lottery for a season or two? I just don't see a team centered around Yao, Chandler and Hinrich making the playoffs in the West right away. MacBeth, I agree the first thing you do after this deal is turn around and shop either Cat/MoT or Cat/Cato for a solid 3.
Chicago would love to have Steve, all star starter, kills Chicago every time he plays them, he loves them, probably still pissed they didn't draft HIM #1 overall, he would be an instantly marketable player for them....the pros way outweigh the cons. Not sure if it would work cap wise and I'd be interested to see if we could get a pick...
also 007, I wouldn't think getting Kirk and Ty would preclude return trips to the lotto, any moreso than they do now. Rox have proven they can win games they shouldn't with minimal contributions from SF and lose winable games with a big game from him.
Chicago would do this deal. 1. They get a fan favorite perrenial all-star with an explosive game. 2. They'd have Crawford left to team with him. They'd have a vet big man and a young big man left, to make a good front court to go with the explosive, scoring backcourt. Pippen might stay the remaining year on his deal. Curry/AD A Davis/ JYD/Fizer (they can trade one) Pippen?/Dupree/ trade acquisition or pick? Crawford/Francis Francis/Crawford/Brunson They'd also possibly have E.Rob, Kendall Gill, and Corie Blount. That team would be strong up front and explosive in back. They would move instantly from lotto to playoffs. They could take full advantage of Steve's charisma and spunk to sell out the arena and make the team one to watch on tv. They vault from the lotto to the playoffs and become one of the hot teams in the league. It's a gamble worth taking. I think they'd give us the players and the pick.
The point may or may not be valid, but these are certainly not the best examples to refute what hardeji said. In the case of Boston getting McHale, exactly how is trading two draft picks (#1 and #13) for Robert Parish and the #3 draft pick (Kevin McHale) the equivalent of trading a "proven all-star"? If anything, only Boston got the proven player in Parish (4 years in the league, putting up 17, 12 and 3 for Golden State) and Boston was fortunate that the best player in the draft (McHale) was passed on by the top 2 picks. The Kobe-Vlade trade was a miracle for the Lakers and honestly not too big of a risk. They needed cap space to get Shaquille O'Neal, who played Vlade's position. They also had Elden Campbell who could play the position. So they had to move Vlade anyway, and they got a young stud who West loved all along. Just a flat-out perfect trade in all facets for the Lakers that doesn't really apply here. The Lakers example really points to the Rockets needing to deal Cato, not Francis. Center is a position of strength right now for the Rockets, and clearly has to be the league's biggest weakness at the moment. I would hope he has strong value on the market (though I'm not too sure about that anymore). Trades in general are a risky business, especially for young players. Would one rather have Darius Miles and Tyson Chandler... or Andre Miller and Elton Brand? Cavs and Bulls certainly have to asking themselves that question. On the opposite end: Dale Davis or Jermaine O'Neal? Hinrich/Chandler could be the next Stockton/Garnett, or they could be Bryce Drew/Jerome Moiso (though Chandler has clearly gotten better in his first three seasons). Unfortunately salary cap space is sapping all the fun out of the trading business, and it sucks. So many deals are done of this reason alone these days. If the Celtics frontline existed today, Bird, McHale and Parish would all want the "max". I'm no longer 100% against trading Francis though. In fact I'm even open to a clean slate at the guard positions. But to make this deal you need to be very confident in Hinrich's future in this league and his ability to play defense in Van Gundy's system and the stability of Chandler's back. While Yao/Chandler would be a tough frontline to get shots against, they certainly are thin and could get quite bullied in the West.
a) Re: Boston, my memory is failing me. I thought Maxwell was involved the other way, but am obviously confusing things. b) Disagree, howver, that the Lakers trade doesn't apply here. Obviously no two moves are direct mirors of each other, but as far as proven for unproven, it applys. There were other concerns, but you could suggest the same here. c) I tend to agree with Bill Walsh's take on professional sports; each sport ( baseball less so) is set up to naturally promote gradiation towards the middle. Teams which supercede that process do so by one of three means; taking chances and succeeding, being the benefactors of extreme luck, or circumventing the normal process by virtue of free agency. Those who play in conservative are relying on the latter two. Those who don't risk falling down...which means another opportunity to try again...or rising high. So it comes down to whether or not you think as is, with time, we are an elite team. It's arguable...and I certainly prefer it to trading Francis just to get rid of him...but it's also arguable that now is the time to make a move if you are going to do so. d) I think that both Hinrich and Chandler had much higher potential coming out than either or your examples, and both have already proven more than either. e) Agree about Chandler's back...to me, that would be the key question. About their being thin, though, I think we are going to be hard pressed to find a bulky 4 ( a la Cato) with the offensive skills which Cato doesn't have, and whose absence make doubling Yao almost an automatic way to go for opponents. Besides, Yao isn't exactly small right now, and I think further size on him is almost inevitable. Add 15-25 more lbs, and Chandler alongside might be exactly what the doctor ordered, as Yao might be sturdier but even less active with increased weight, and Chandler is very active.
If Chicago is worried enough about Chandler's back, maybe they would do this (we would swallow Davis' ridiculous contract in the process...): Houston trades: SF Bostjan Nachbar (3.1 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 11.1 minutes) PF Maurice Taylor (12.3 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 1.3 apg in 28.3 minutes) C Kelvin Cato (6.2 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 1.0 apg in 27.8 minutes) Houston receives: PF Antonio Davis (9.0 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 1.7 apg in 32.4 minutes) PF Tyson Chandler (13.0 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 1.0 apg in 28.6 minutes) Change in team outlook: +0.4 ppg, +4.5 rpg, and -0.2 apg. Chicago trades: PF Antonio Davis (9.0 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 1.7 apg in 32.4 minutes) PF Tyson Chandler (13.0 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 1.0 apg in 28.6 minutes) Chicago receives: SF Bostjan Nachbar (3.1 ppg, 1.3 rpg, 0.6 apg in 31 games) PF Maurice Taylor (12.3 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 1.3 apg in 39 games) C Kelvin Cato (6.2 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 1.0 apg in 44 games) Change in team outlook: -0.4 ppg, -4.5 rpg, and +0.2 apg. TRADE ACCEPTED Due to Houston and Chicago being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Houston and Chicago had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.
It's not arguable. Think about the teams in the league over the past 5 seasons who haven't won it all, some who haven't even made the Finals. The Mavs, Kings, T-Wolves, Pacers, Pistons, etc....these are teams that have been much better than us the past 2 - 5 seasons, depending on the squad. It is really really hard to win once you get to the playoffs. We've spent so long struggling just to get there, I think we overlook the fact that once we do get there we could just be another T-Wolves and never make it past the first round. The team, as assembled, will only get to the Finals and win it all under one scenario - Yao developed into a 25+, 10+ threat, every night. Yao sucks, sometimes, but I think most on the board and around the league can recognize that the problem with this Houston team is in the backcourt, not the front. We have amazingly explosive, athletic guards, yet they can't make good decisions - is it that surprising that our best backcourt player so far this year has been Jim Jackson?? We have a great defensive team, yet I could drive by Francis in a game. Clutch is right that the position that could use the most improvement in the league is Center, theoretically giving Cato the most trade value. Yet, if anything, the only reason the Rockets have played as good as they have so far is due to their interior defense. Imagine how much stronger we could be defensively if we could stop (at least more frequently) guard penetration. And we'd likely improve offensively with a more pass first PG. The question, in my mind, is not what change needs to be made, but what that change nets in return. I'm not confident that Hinrich is a "star in the making" or that Chandler will ever be more than a 13, 10 guy (with possible back problems??). Will there be a bigger market for Steve or Cuttino in the offseason, when he is easier to trade without his BYC status? Will TMac want to force a trade or will the TWolves bow out in the first round again, putting some of their players on the market? Every year there seems to be some big name marque players switch teams.
You can disagree, but you'd be wrong. hardeji said "proven All-Star", and Vlade wasn't an All-Star. That in and of itself disqualifies it, but the "other concerns" I raised directly affect the example. You don't get Shaq (proven All-Star) without dumping Divac's contract, so in a sense it was Shaq+Kobe for Divac since they made the trade knowing they would sign Shaq. The fact that Kobe turned out the way he did (with the exception of his Colorado romp) was just the best case scenario for the Lakers. If the Rockets had a Steve Nash, Ray Allen or a Carmelo Anthony ready to sign with Houston contingent on this deal, I don't think many fans would balk and it would certainly make the trigger a lot easier to pull. Overall, the point you made was that championship teams have made these types of moves, and they probably have, but there are many non-championship teams that have made the same type of moves. With that said, somehow, someway the Rockets guard situation needs to change. Mobley/Francis just doesn't work. I believe the Rockets will be at their best position to make moves in the offseason. Back problems are never a good sign and one has to worry that the situation is chronic. I do like Chandler a lot, but you'd have to be extremely comfortable with that issue to make this move. Yao isn't small, no, but Brian Grant and Jason Collins (shorter, huskier defenders) have been able to push him around. Chandler needs to bulk up, but he is active enough to where this may not be a huge concern. Hinrich would be the key ... I haven't watched him play much this year though he clearly isn't shooting the ball well (except from three-point territory). If he can distribute much better than Francis, run the break, defend and knock down the three, I think he would be great. We don't necessarily need the "break down the defender" skills that Francis has. The hope would be less flash, more substance but Hinrich would have to be all that for that to be the case and you're betting on a rookie after pouring almost 5 years in to Steve.
the last time I checked was this morning, and the bulls in the weak east, and has 13 wins with hinrich and chandler, the bull would have to give up more than that to get francis. (multiple draft picks)
Shoul've tried to ship him to NY while Isaiah was looking for that "dominant" PG he always builds around. Oh well.
Chandler hasn't had an injury free season yet. Even though he would be a nice complement to Yao, his injury problem isn't worth SF. And how can ya'll say Hinrich is a star? His numbers are where they should be for a 7th pick, and the guy can't play D for his life. It's an interesting trade idea, but it would hurt our team more than it would help right now.
Houston trades: C Yao Ming (16.3 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 1.5 apg in 32.6 minutes) Houston receives: PF Tyson Chandler (13.0 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 1.0 apg in 28.6 minutes) PG Kirk Hinrich (10.6 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 5.6 apg in 33.5 minutes) Change in team outlook: +7.3 ppg, +4.0 rpg, and +5.1 apg. Chicago trades: PF Tyson Chandler (13.0 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 1.0 apg in 28.6 minutes) PG Kirk Hinrich (10.6 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 5.6 apg in 33.5 minutes) Chicago receives: C Yao Ming (16.3 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 1.5 apg in 45 games) Change in team outlook: -7.3 ppg, -4.0 rpg, and -5.1 apg. TRADE ACCEPTED Due to Houston and Chicago being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Houston and Chicago had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out unless trade exceptions were used for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. SLAP YO FACE BIATCH
