They all prove the point that teams in the postseason generally have very strong offenses. Dude, I already posted the results of the Rockies "run" in September, and it was quite offensive-oriented. Not to be an ass, but can you actually provide any evidence at all? You keep speaking in broad generalities without any facts whatsoever. Show me these Phillies, Rockies and Cards runs led by pitching. Give me September and postseason ERAs, and contrast it to where they ranked on offense. Try and provide actual, quantifiable data, instead of randomly ranting without any evidence or substance.
OK I am not saying anything about making moves this year right now.... ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT THE WAGNER TRADE WAS A BAD ONE AND HE HAD A POINT ABOUT UNCLE D!!! Look at my prior post... Uncle D is a good owner best we've had I dont think he is cheap never ever said that BUT I do think he cuts corners thats been proven!!!! All I am saying is that we could have gotten more for Wagner and tried to get the 03 squad help but it didn't happen oh well that was 6 years ago...long gone dude!!!
Proof on the Rockies...look up the Phillies But it's the Rockies' pitching that has come to the forefront in the last month, especially the bullpen and the unexpected contributions of rookie starters Ubaldo Jimenez and Franklin Morales. In the 20-1 run, the bullpen went 10-0 with a 2.07 ERA, giving up 19 earned runs in 82 2/3 innings. In the first six playoff games, it allowed two earned runs in 23 innings for a 0.78 ERA, going 3-0. Jimenez, while somewhat inconsistent in September, pitched 6⅓ innings of one-hit ball in the must-win game against Arizona on Sept. 30 and has allowed two earned runs in 11⅓ playoff innings. Morales, who started the season in Class AA, was 3-0 with 2.88 ERA in September. http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/rockies/2007-10-16-rockies-streak_N.htm
The Wagner trade was a very good one, because it gave the Astros the financial flexibility to sign Pettitte and Clemens. That was the number one priority, and it worked. Does Drayton cut corners? Of course, it's called common business sense. He has to stay within the confines of his revenues. But so does every team that's not NY/Boston, and that's where Wagner comes off as a spoiled brat. When you asked earlier if Biggio/Bagwell wanted help, of course they'd always like help. The difference is, they didn't act like babies and cry to the media about it, because they understood the realities of the economic situation for teams not in NY/Boston. Yes, the Astros could have gotten more for Wagner, but it would've meant no Andy/Roger -- and no, that does not make Drayton cheap. It's absolutely bizarre to hear someone seriously complain about the Wagner trade, since it set in motion the plan that led this team to its two best seasons in franchise history.
He's right. Lidge wasn't going to figure it out here. Lidge fixed all his mechanics and relearned how to pitch there.
Starting pitching... Bullpen is part of the pitching staff no??? Again....read my earlier post...isn't the fact we trade Wags its what we got for him...
I think we really missed out on having a Taveras-Bourn combo in the outfield. Imagine them hitting 1-2. All that speed at the top of the lineup would scare the daylights out of other teams.
There are 12 members of a pitching staff. You cited one starter's September results, and another starter's partial October results. Do you not realize how ridiculous that is for "proof"? That's the equivalent of me saying "the 2009 Houston Astros had the best pitching of all time! Want proof? Wandy Rodriguez went 4-0 with a 0.75 ERA in July, and Bud Norris allowed two runs in 13 August innings." Do you not realize how incredibly incomplete that evaluation is, when it comes to the entirety of the team's pitching staff?
So ok we dont get another Arm but better prospects? or maybe someone who could help the everyday lineup??? My beef is we gave up the greatest closer this team has ever seen for what we gave him for thats all!!
Dude those two guys are two of the main reasons they went to the series along with Francis...if you want his stats here they are http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7383 and before you complain about the 4.22 era it is Coors Field remember that!
Yea expect my argument was that pitching helped the rockies get in the playoffs and eventually the Series thats all I am trying to prove...you are shifting facts around to benefit your argument!
The Astros got good prospects -- two of the top 10 from one of the deepest systems in baseball. Both were pitchers. The other player had promise as well. It just unfortunately didn't work out, as often happens with prospect deals -- see the players Colorado got from us for Jennings. Yes, we could've gotten someone to help the everyday lineup -- but if it was someone proven, there goes your ability to get Andy/Roger. And if it's a prospect, you're taking the same risk. Hunsicker had a good track record with prospects, for the most part -- I have no problem trusting his judgment. Those particular players just didn't work out, and it's an inherent risk in prospect trades. Basically, I just don't understand why you keep looking at this in a vacuum. The Astros effectively traded Wagner for those prospects plus Andy/Roger, a trade I think we'd all look back and agree with. It just feels like you don't even consider the financial side of the equation, and that's a big reason why a lot of our trades happen, and a lot of the trades you wanted to see happen did not.
Huh? Of course pitching helped the Rockets get in the playoffs and the World Series. As did hitting, defense, etc. No team is going to have the worst staff - or the worst offense - in the league, and make a World Series. Of course they're going to have some contributions to their success from a pitching staff. The debate is your assertion that pitching is far more important to late-season success than offense -- and to show that, you need overall numbers, as well as numbers that compare offensive contributions to pitching contribution. By the way, in the month of September, Matt Holliday hit .367 with a .448 OBP, .796 SLG, and a 1.244 OPS. In the playoffs, he hit .333 with a .429 OBP, .667 SLG, and a 1.095 OPS. Those numbers are obscene.
Exactly thank you...the trade didn't work out thats all i've been saying and if a trade doesn't work out its a failure in my book and yes you win thanks to the trade we got Andy and Roger fine but the "TRADE" didn't succed!
The argument against that is that these so-called assets, who were under club control still, eventually flamed out as well. Taveras did have a better year with Colorado (in a vastly superior hitters park, which yielded him scores of badly-hit bloops, and that OF can turn any 2B into a 3B).... but since has regressed every year. Maybe the organization felt this was the best these three were ever going to be able to get....and this was the most they were going to be able to get for them on a team that needed more proven pitching. Can you honestly say they were wrong? None of these have done anything that would make the Astros say, "Jeez... I wish we held on to these guys.". Likewise, they're not saying, "Jeez... we could have gotten so much more for them had we held on to them..." I know the other argument is that "they should have gotten more..." Well, that's a real easy argument to make without having the burden of proof of naming names. Who else could they have gotten? Remember, the same deal was REJECTED by the White Sox for Jon Garland just a few days prior. If it wasn't good enough to get Jon Garland (who hasn't been much of anything either since that deal), who was it good enough to get? What's the point of lamenting the loss of three "prospects" who as already has been said in here, didn't do much afterwards? Who cares if they would have hung on to them.... if you end up getting less than what they were once worth the more they get exposed.
