All those trades sucked but my Favorite of all Astros Time is Billy Wagner for Duckworth, Taylor Buchholz and Ezequiel Astacio!!! We gave up an all time closer for this????
...and didn't miss a beat with Dotel and Lidge stepping in. I miss Wagner, too (well, not his mouth). But that was nothing like losing Curt Schilling, Kenny Lofton, Joe Freaking Morgan, et. al. for the puffs-of-methane we got in return. And then there was the Ryan-for-Clancy thing. Now, *that* cheers me up!
That Wagner trade talk reminds me of one of my favorite images that I haven't seen in a few years. There is a pic somewhere out there of Bidge trotting down the 1B line with Wagner on the mound with his mouth hanging open watching Bidge's bomb. Awesome.
It is beyond astounding that people have opinions like this today. The Astros did not give up a single player worth anything. Jason Hirsh is complete garbage -- 27-year-old AAA pitcher with an in that deal ERA over 6. Colorado has already dumped him. Willy Taveras has an OBP of .279 and OPS of .569 and is probably THE WORST STARTER IN THE ENTIRE MAJOR LEAGUES. He is complete and utter garbage. Taylor Buchholz was a failure as a starter, had one decent season as a set-up man, and promptly blew out his arm. Yes, Jason Jennings sucked -- but not a single one of those three players would even make the Astros 25-man roster right now -- and this is on a team with arguably the least depth in the league. Everyone the Astros traded in that deal completely sucks and would not make the slightest difference for this team. Get over it.
The Jennings trade, and it's not even close. Bourn has shown promise this year. He has 39 SB, as well as 70 runs. Plus, he's hitting at a respectable .286 this season. He covers as much ground in center as anyone in MLB. His stock's on the rise, while Lidge's is on the decline. He has already blown 6 saves this season. But, the Phils did win the Series last year with a dominant Lidge in the pen, so you can't really blame them for making the deal. Overall, the Lidge trade has worked out well for both teams in one way or another. On the other hand, Jennings was a pathetic excuse for a pitcher during his time with Houston.
This makes me want to beat my head against the wall. So, for the Lidge trade, you analyze both sides of it -- what we got, and what they got. For the Jennings trade, you analyze what we got... and conveniently say nothing at all about what they got. Yes, Jennings was a pathetic excuse for a pitcher during his time with Houston. And guess what? Willy Taveras, Jason Hirsh, and Taylor Buchholz have been pathetic excuses for baseball players in Colorado. (with the exception of one season as a set-up man) How can the Jennings deal be so utterly terrible, when none of the three players you gave up could even make your 25-man roster?
The revival of this thread along with the Reggie Bush thread have really brought out some not-so-bright opinions of late. You guys have a lot more patience than me.
OOOO Ill disagree there...Remember after we dealt Wagner Dotel became the closer and struggled a bit not horribly but a bit and so we made the Beltran trade thus Lidge became closer and yes dominated but you couldn't get more for an all world closer??? All the guys you meantioned hadn't shown nearly as much as they would eventually show and that could be half the Stros fault for pulling the plug to quick or just not being able to polish them. Wagner was in his prime and spoke the truth about Uncle D which got him traded otherwise he would have set the all time saves record or atleast approached it with us!(shoulder issues not withstanding) Saying that if Ryan for Clancy was a real trade then yes that pretty much tops all screw ups!
That must be why he went out, signed Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens and Jeff Kent, and led the Astros to their two most successful seasons in franchise history, including its only World Series. That must be why the Astros spend a far higher percentage of overall revenues on payroll than almost any other franchise in the game. Yeah, Drayton's a cheap b*stard, SCREW HIM!!! Seriously, some of you need to go become Yankees fans and get it over with. That's the only way you'll ever be happy.
Let's actually go a step further, and quote Wagner's actual comments, after the 2003 season: The Astros then proceeded to sign both Andy Pettitte and Roger Clemens that same offseason. On what planet was what Wagner said even remotely "truth"?
it's interesting that colorado and philadelphia both won the NL the year following their deals with the astros. total coincidence but interesting, nonetheless. i continue to disagree with you, btw, on this trade. hopefully, Major will jump in here, too. taveras posted a .367 OB% and started for a WS team (his second WS appearence - the dude was, what? 25?) while buchholz was an above-average reliever that season. last year, he was flat-out awesome. and while hirsh has indeed sputtered out, i'd rather have him and his potential than a one-year rental of jason jennings. besides, we can't just assume, because he's flamed out elsewhere, that he would have absolutely flamed out here, too. i mean, it's highly likely but then again, colorado doesn't exactly have a long history of developing ML pitchers. you're talking about three kids, two with ML success and another that dominated triple A talent. you look at the astros' system, and trades like that one are one of the reasons its so barren. it may not crack the top 10 but it was certainly a bad trade, imo.
You speak the truth my friend HOWEVER when was the last time before those comments came out that Uncle D went out and get an arm??? RJohnson was a trade and a rental at that so he doesn't count, Hampton trade, Lima lol...,
Also, I am happy dont get me wrong My beef since 04-05 was with Timmy P not Drayton but I do think Wagner hit a nerve about pitching and thus the greatest closer in our franchise went to Philly...
When was the last time he had the revenue stream to make it happen? Money doesn't grow on trees. The Astros had more wiggle room, and ended up with a great opportunity with two pitchers willing to take slightly under market value to play in Houston. Drayton took advantage. If you want teams to spend recklessly every year regardless of revenue, cheer for the Yankees. It doesn't work that way in the real world.
Hey I know your right but my original comment was that Wagner spoke the truth and you just confirmed it...I understand we don't have the Yanks resources I get that but you spend 100 million on Caballo but can't spend it on pitching lol...you know he got burned with Drabek and Swindell so he became very careful after that with pitching he would go after until like you said slightly under market value pitchers became avilable and in Clemens case WAY under market value in 04...not saying Uncle D is a bad owner not in the least bit butttttt I am saying Wagner had a point in his comments!
Dude. Teams who crank out the arms we were cranking out late '90s early '00s don't need to "go out and get an arm". The Astros were absolutely brimming with pitching talent. They were widely regarded among the best organization/farm systems in MLB. (MY have times changed.) And it's ridiculous to discount the RJ deal. The Astros paid a nice ransom for him at the deadline, then backed up a Brinks truck to his house which he promptly declined. This is precisely where I'm at. I don't think it was "good" by any stretch, just that it's incredibly laughable for someone to call it the "worst trade in Astros history ever." I put a little less value on Willy T and Buccholz than you do, too--but I see where you're coming from.
