the point is the Rockets aren't a fastbreaking team. They haven't been in a while, even before Francis. Get players to look to run and they will.
No, our fastbreak was NOT fine with Posey. I remember quite clearly that I thought Posey was being wasted. At least Rudy let him take the ball himself a few times, and that helped a little bit. You keep bashing JJ for not being able to "finish" fast breaks. But do you honestly remember JJ blowing a fast break? The problem is Steve never gets the fast break started in the first place. He doesn't know how or can't push the ball up. You can't blame players for not finishing when they never get the chance to.
The truth you are ignoring here is that, if we get players who run, the fast break would succeed in spite of Francis not because of him. That's why you are saying that we should get a fast 3 so that we won't need our PG to run the break.
No I'm saying fastbreaking is a team effort and a team mind set. Its not just the point guard wants to run a good fast break so the team will.
Getting more "Poseys" is the worst excuse as a starting solution. Yes, you are right, it would help...but read on... Putting aside individuals like Posey and Boki who had the ablity to take it coast-to-coast...without the PG help.... First of all, running more as a team means that we would have to play great man-on-man defense where you steal the ball (or get a quick rebound), throw an outlet pass to a mid-court guard (usually your point). Then it's your PG that is supposed to take over from there. It is HERE where we have the most problems. The wing-men do run.....Now, of these limited number of fast-break opportunities we DO have, most of those are screwed up. I mean, come on? Can't you see this? I mean, are you actually going to sit there and tell us that Francis is a good fast-break point guard, and that if he only had a "fast break team," he'd prove it? Huh?! There seems to be a few things you are overlooking... Listen, point guards that *can* pass accurately, can do this because THEY setup their teammates. Not the other way around. Sure, they all need to practice. And having long-stride guys like Posey helps. But the wing-mans job is to just run; just get down the court. The point guard says, "Don't worry. I'll pass it to you *if* I think you are open." See, the point guard is *supposed* to know best. There are usually two passing options (on say a 2-on-1). The, third option, is to shoot the "stop and pop" shot. Which again, rarely happens. The fourth, sometimes the PG can take the layup himself, but that's very hard because it requires excellent ambidextrous cross-over skills (not "madd-skills"), fake-passes, and great timing. So, forget about Francis doing that. Now, if *none* of these four options are available, guess what? It's the point guards job to pull back and reset the play and wait for the rest of the team to catch up. Does that happen? No, because Francis is always looking for the "home run." Sigh... Most of the time, Francis passes the ball because Mobley or JJ just "look at him and ask for the ball" But that's just thing. That was Francis fault for passing the ball too soon in the first place. It doesn't matter how much a wing-man waves his hands "wanting" the ball. It's the PG job to make the best decision on that pass because it's the PG job to see the whole floor and analyze the situation. You need to look at the root causes here. Not the symptoms. Adding better fast-breaking teammates helps, true. But it's ancillary. Those kind of players (Posey or Boki) finish the fast-break IN SPITE of Francis, not because of him. Now...after this is all said and done....no wonder why we suck at the fast-break. The setup is so bad. Fast-break teams are BORN when that team acquires point guards that can actaully setup the teammates. The essence of the "point." The ball starts there. Thus, any fast-breaking, long-sriding wingman aquired is just "gravy."
No the truth you are ignoring is that everyone is responsible on the fastbreak, if you admit that we had a player that was effective on the fast break in Posey, you have no more argument. You guys are hillarious, now we can't even get players to make up for team needs because its a cop out for Francis? What kind of b.s. is that?
Since this thread seems to have deviated from a discussion about points worse than Steve to why he is an ineffective fast break instigator, here are my thoughts: Why doesn't Francis lead an effective break? Simple, really. He loves the ball too much. There are essentially two kinds of primary breaks; one where the ball is in the air almost the entire time, at least most of it, and this kind necessitates a quick outlet pass as it's inception. Steve almost never looks to pass off to the middle man,a necessity for a consistent fast break. He looks for the homerun,and if that's not there, he brings it up, period. You get opportunities for homeruns maybe 2 or 3 times a game. Watch Steve when he rebounds or receives the ball off of an opponent miss or make; At times he'll immediately look for the homer, then immediately settle into his dribble trot, often taking an angle that eleiminates any break opportunities that might have been there. More often he simply gets the ball and either waits for the team to get ahead of him, or looks for his pathway past haflcourt. There is no obvious consideration given to any teammates other than the leaker, and if he's covered, we're done. The second kind is the point lead break, made famous by the likes of Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomans, and practiced best today by Kidd and Nash; Hinrich is gonna be another of these. This kind of break takes anticipation and court vision that Steve simply does not posses, or if he does, it has never been consistently demonstrated. You have to see who's filling what lane, what defender's on his heels, what passing lane is going to be available in another step or so, and Steve does none of these things well. He is an adequate passer when he does see what's there, and his alley ooop passes to Cato have gotten quite good, but he doesn't have the requisite vision and feel to know where the pass is going to go in advance enough to run a point lead break with anything approaching consistency. It should also be noted that even on teams which possess points with those skills, like NJ, the point lead break is still far less used than the pass ahead, and again, Steve doesn't pass ahead. You can tell a lot about a point's mentality with his initial actions when getting the ball. Watch Kidd, or hell, watch Hinrich: Gets ball, protects with off arm if in traffic, but head it up, eyes are past his man looking downcourt for openings or open men. Unless blocked, first step is always ALWAYS an aggressive push straight up the middle. Watch Steve, and his initial movement is to look at his man with an eye towars beating him if he's in close, and his first step can go anywhere, sometimes up, sometimes to the side, it's all dependant upon the relationship between him and his man. He is, at heart, a one on one player. It may have been taught or reinforced under Rudy, but it's so ingrained now, so apparent in his smallest actions that I doubt it can be overcome. I suspect he wants to be better at this, I just don't think he can. And the speed of the teammates thing is crap. The old Celtics used to run a great break, and they were all slow as hell.
Exactly, the Celtics used to run a great break, not Bird, not Ainge, not D.J., but the Celtics. You made my point. Thank you.
He may have made YOUR point, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a weak point. We can bring in a 3 like Posey who wouldn't take pressure off Yao with his shooting skills, but would make Francis look better on the break. We're building around Yao. If we need to take away from Yao to giveto Francis, then we can't build this team around both. Francis is not good at running a fastbreak, we've seen it with our eyes. You're proposing ways in which we can make him look better or help him out, but that doesn't change the fact that he's average AT VERY BEST at running a fastbreak.
Considering those guys were all committed to running a break by getting the ball up the court by passing it and not dribbling it and all of them were sure-handed and good decision makers, I'm not sure how much of a point you have.
Hmmm? "Not Bird, not Ainge, not D.J?" So, how did the Celtics have a great fast-break *team* without first having the players that KNOW how to pass? I mean, we're not takling about "Kidd like" skills. We're just takling about fundamental passing skills. All those players "understood" the concept of the "break" with all its intricacies. They knew when and where to be, how and when to pass. All of them. Not just some of them. This is a learned technique. Bird was an excellent passer regardless of what he was doing. It was inherent. Dennis Johnson was a competent/defensive guard, but also knew the concept of team passing. McHale, like Bird, was also a very good passer. Ainge was a good, savvy, hard working guard also understood the system. Even big Parrish knew the importance of passing. This knowledge had a direct effect on how to run the break. This is not *just* about "running down the court aimlessly." You also have to have a point man that knows when and when not to pass; whoever that may be. There's a lot of *thought* and *timing* put into how certain breaks will be run. So, it's not just about having your guys run down the court real fast, but rather a learned skill on *how* to run and pass. Notice something missing? A Posey type player? This is not about having a guy like Posey that has an individual physical advantages over his peers (ability to finish plays on his own). This is about a innate learning ability that *all* players have (or don't) which make *learning* possible. Seems like your point is that Francis (or Mobley) can't learn how to run a break, thus we must bring in others that can run it for him. Well, no amount of individual physical talent we bring in will help Francis learn it. All you are suggesting are "band-aids" used to cover up the real problems. There's a reason we aren't good at the fast-break. It's because the guy with the ball most of the time is *bad* at it. It's also important to note that the Celtics didn't suffer from that thing called "dribble mania" on the break. Not like us. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"
That's hard to answer given that Francis plays 40 mpg and the Rockets are dead last in FB pts with less than 8 per game. At the end of the season, Jackson started against 2 athletic, perimeter-oriented teams. The Rox had 9 FB pts vs SEA and 11 vs DAL. There are two plays which demonstrate the difference between the ancient Jackson and the in his prime Francis. Jackson's bounce pass between two defenders to Yao on a secondary break that Yao flushed home. And Francis's playoff game 2 on 1 with Jim Jackson wide open on the wing where Francis went to the hoop and was fouled instead of passing. Those two plays summarize the difference.
I seem to remember Francis making a great no-look on the fast break in game 3 when Francis had a triple double. And you're right, Francis never ever ever passes to Jim Jackson when he sets up in the corner on a fast break. Never seen that happen.
I don't really want to get into a debate about Steve with you, partly because I don't think you are quite objective about him, for whatever reason. That's not a shot; I have been, I am sure, so fond/defensive about particular players on my teams in the past I developed knee jerk reactionism. Todd Stottlemeyer, for a long period my favorite pitcher when he was younger, had me convinced that he had Cy Young's in his future, and nothing could convince me otherwise. So I'm not saying you're doing something wrong or rare, just that I think you're doing it. And many times your defenses of Steve have been factual and contrary to some knee-jerk criticism of Steve. But other times, like this, you really seem to be reaching so far you are either missing glaring points on purpose, or out of devotion inspired myopia. I say this partly as a comment, because you are smart enough, in a genral sense and a basketball sense, to see these things under normal circumstances. The Celtics ran their break as a team, yes. But their players were intrinsic to that team ability, and certain players more than others. Their guards were the most important of all, and had they been possessed of Steve's need to dominate the ball in mid-court coupled with his shortcomings as a break passer, the Celtics would not have run the break well as a team. Both of their guars were superior break passers to Steve, and moreover, neither one controlled/demanded the ball as much coming up. It isn't ALL at Steve's door, no. But he's the major player on this. If your running game sucks for years despite changing OL's, the obvious conclusion is it's your running back. If you line and wrs change but your passing game still sucks, your looking at your quarterback. Steve is our quarterback for the break, and we've been terrible for years. Arguing about the latest receivers isn't really looking at the problem honestly.
First of all, its not just that the team doesn't have a fast breaking mentality, the point is that Steve isn't always the quarterback on a fast break. The fast break is run by the player that receives the outlet. It's not like football where the player who is quarterbacking the offense, who always takes the snap from center is the alwatys quarterback. Everyone agrees that Mark Jackson is a better pure point guard than Steve, but no one wrote our fast break is better when Mark Jackson is in the game. The fast break isn't the point guard receives the ball, the shooting guard and small forward get out on the wings and the point guard makes the decision. Was Bird always the receiver of the outlet pass, was it D.J. Was either one of them always the finisher. No. The team looked to run whenever the opportunity was there. It wasn't D.J., the point guard making them run. It was a team mind set and a team effort. This little tanget in this thread represents the false mentality that every problem with this team is Francis's fault. I make the point that the fast break runs well when other teamates in the past such as Posey and and Walt Williams made a committment to running, and people write, yeah but that's despite Steve Francis. So when our fast break runs well its despite Francis but when it doesn't run well its because of him. Its ridiculous. Fast breaking is a team effort. And the only team that always had the same guy running their break is probably Magic's Lakers. Other than that, it isn't always Bibby running the Kings' break, it isn't always Nash running the Mavs break, etc. Its a team effort, and to blame the Rockets woes on running the break, when they had this problem before Francis even got to Houston just represents what's wrong with the fans of this team.
Woah! Ok, listen... The Celtics of the 80's were the Celtics of the 80's. Please don't compare them to the Rockets based on some vision of what you want them to do *now*. Those Celtic players "mindset" was built from the ground up back in the early 80's. The culture of the basketball was completely different back then compared to now. So, don't even try and compare them. Not unless you want to get rid of the whole Rox team and wait around for the old Celtics players to come back (sarcasm). Now, that being said, if you have players that are smart, can learn, and are not always hell bent on scoring, then yes. The mindset will change. But with players today that feel that it is their job to score. Well, it kinda defeats the purpose of the "mind-set" you are talking about now doesn't it? And guess who's will get *most* of the blame (Francis). Not all, most. This is why you always here me stressing fundamentals. We're not talking "super star Magic Johnson" skill. We're just talking about soild, competent well-balanced passing skills. Our "star" and 2nd best players are missing a lot of those skills. Sure, there are players out there in the league that can run the break better (individually). But our "best" players on the Rox do not play this way. Francis being the #1 option, has the ball in his hands *most* of the time. You say that Francis is not the "quarterback" where he gets the ball on the break *all* the time. That's true. That's because he's bad at it. Did you forget that? Getting other player to change their mind set ALSO SHOULD INCLUDE FRANCIS, right? Yes or no? Also, do you think that our role players would do a better job compared to our PG? Huh? Then, what's the point of having a "star" PG? I mean, he's wasting the PG responsibility. That's like saying, "So, what if our center can't rebound! We need to get forwards and guards that take over the rebounding responsibility." Do you see how silly that sounds? It's passing the buck. Listen, first, you get a PG that can run the break as the leader. Not like Kidd, but just competently. Then, you start working on the other players skills by getting them on the same page. Now, if the PG CAN NOT LEARN, what good is it if you bring in others? Sure, the others can finish some breaks on their own (because they have the "mind-set"). But this would be in spite of Francis (the PG) and because of their own ability (mind-set). Why? Because Francis still would not learn this "mind-set" you talk about. He'd be the weak-link in the chain. If you want to talk about "mind-set" then you need to talk to you boy Francis. It's his brain we are talking about. And you said, "It's not *all* Francis fault." No, it's not. It's "Mostly his fault." Remember we're talking about the fast-break here. An important part of the PG job. And also our so-called "star player."
Two things, I didn't bring up the Celtics, MacBeth did. Second, please point out all these mythical fast breaks that Francis is blowing. Please. I do not recall all these times that Jim Jackson was out in front running and Francis didn't pass him the ball. I do recall Posey being out in front and getting the ball. So where are all these mythical blown fast breaks. I saw announcers point out a lot of flaws in Steve's game this year, not once do I remember watching a game and the announcer saying " the Rockets are just blowing fast breaks". The reason, there are no opportunities period.
