The Club has the Right to not Admit who they want HOWEVER . . WOMEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO NOT LIKE IT To BOYCOTT THOSE THAT DO BUSINESS WITH THAT CLUB ETc. . . . The Right to NOT LIKE **** is a asic human right. Are you against people not liking something and letting others know their displeasurE? Rocket River
From Snopes: Claim: The word 'golf' is an acronym formed from "gentlemen only; ladies forbidden." Status: False. Origins: This specious word origin has gained credence in recent years through its being made part of interminable Internet-circulated "Did you know . . .?" lists. Though the length of those lists varies from one manifestation to the next (some have six entries; others have close to fifty), the truth value of this entry never changes -- it's false. As for golf and this wholly unfounded "gentlemen only; ladies forbidden" word origin, its appeal is attributable to a societal shift in the nature of who now plays the game. Women these days take as many trips around the links as do their male counterparts, and golf has grown to be pastime enjoyed by both sexes. It's thus somewhat pleasing to imagine that this now egalitarian game was at its inception intended strictly for one gender; that indeed its very name declared it off limits to the fair sex (presumably keeping them from becoming "the fairway sex" as well). Women enjoy this notion because they take satisfaction from the image of having stormed and overcome a defended male bastion, whereas men like the specious word origin because it "confirms" that it's really their game, even if the ladies now run rampant through it. Nice try, Da.
I agree with you that they have a right to protest whatever they want. The problem is, like you said, "The Club has the right to not admit who they want".
I agree with you that they have a right to protest whatever they want. The problem is, like you said, "The Club has the right to not admit who they want". Agreed. The battle now is which side CBS will pick.
What is the big deal, they aren't trying to destroy the club, just using legitmate free speech protected means to make it as insignificant as possible on a national scale because of their history of and continued discriminatory policies. All the power to these women, I'd be fine if the Master's disappeared from the radar screen if they don't catch up to the 20th century (let alone the 21st).
How can you, on the one hand, really say it's a right; while on the other hand, booster an economic boycott? Isn't that kind of hypocritical? If it's their right, isn't the boycotting just a protest about not getting your way? Is that really on the up-and-up? Augusta National is not doing anything illegal, are they?
giddy -- Just because something is legal doesn't mean everyone agrees with it. I'm sure the fact that abortion is legal doesn't convince you that people should stop picketing clinics, right? One of the things that makes America great is our right to public discourse.
i'm actually kinda surprised that people are saying that they agree with the Augusta and Hootie... if a club were to allow all sexes, but instead chose to reject membership based on race or nationality, we'd probably all be up in arms! it seems sexism is accepted, but not racism or "nationalism" (yeah, not the right word, but I couldn't think of what would be appropriate.) maybe we're just discussing the boycott and the women's right/choice to boycott, but i just get the feeling that everyone seems ok with women being excluded for no real reason except that "its been that way for decades." just color me surprised... but since this is a BBS with a mostly male membership, i guess i shouldn't be... especially considering I was one of the guys that posted in that thread titled "I'm f-ing tired of women" and agreed with it!
Lets get down to the basics here. Do the posters in this thread feel that American citizens have the right to form private clubs? The answer can't be a "Yes, but" answer either, yes or no. My answer is yes.
<b>Mrs.JB</b>: Agreed.... but discourse is one thing and protest may be another. CBS is already forfeiting advertising money. Who will lose their job because of that? Any of them women? I know. The analogy falls short, but saving lives and securing tee times just don't seem to be on equal footing....
From the story: "The Masters has never been a moneymaker for CBS with so little commercial time for sale, but it is valuable to the network because of the prestige and exposure it brings." I don't know if anyone will lose their jobs over it. However, in a capitalist society, economic boycotting is a valid form of protest. Just a few years ago a Christian group called for a massive boycott of Disney products because the company had a gay-friendly policy in place. People may have lost their jobs because of that as well, but the group had the right to make their opinions known.
<b>Mrs.JB</b>: I hope you're not trying to insinuate that I support the Disney boycott? While The Masters may not be a money-maker, cash is cash. They will miss it. I'm not saying that boycotting is not a valid form of protest. I guess I just think it a lowly form of protest. I'm a bit weary of the greatness of America being too much defined by our "rights" to protest what someone else is legally doing. We are greater than that. America is not great because we have devised means to keep us from screwing each other over. America is great because it unleashes people to chart and attain their aspirations. Yes, the checks and balances are necessary but they are not what make us great. And yes we are not perfect because none of us is perfect. In every culture, men gather and do their thing-- whether it's playing golf or hunting lions. Women do other things together across many cultures. We should not ban those practices and socially engineer a single-gender society.
You know giddy, I'm just too dumbfounded by this quote to even respond to it properly. All I can say is you're welcome to join us in the 21st century whenever you like. Btw, I wasn't insinuating you supported the disney boycott, I was just using it as an example from the other end of the political spectrum.
What other form of protest do you suggest? Picket lines? Marches on Washington? Web sites? How else do you protest an economic enterprise but through boycott? Yes, it does, however the way we unleash ourselves is through discourse and protest. If not for protest, women would not have the right to vote, children would still work in sweat shops, there would still be slaves, etc. We NEED protest and discourse to balance ourselves. Without it, we wither and die because change comes whether we want it or not. That is the one unfailing law of the universe. Huh? Are you suggesting women have no place in golf? I do agree that it is important for men and women to have things that they like to do (read Iron John for that one), but it isn't the ACTIVITY that makes it male-centered, it is the fact that you choose to do that activity with OTHER MALES that makes it a cultural gathering. There are men's drumming circles and women's drumming circles and co-ed drumming circles. It isn't the drumming that makes them manly. It is the cammraderie that makes it bonding. Besides, there are PLENTY of women who play golf better than the majority of men, so that is an obvious indicator that it wasn't meant for men alone.
Why dumbfounded? Just check out your next National Geographic Special and you'll see more examples. There has always been great value in men's gatherings and women's gatherings which serve special purposes in whatever society. Shall we exterminate The Shriners? How about the Daughters of the Confederacy? Where is YOUR tolerance when you really need it? <b>Jeff</b>: I don't disagree with what you wrote; I didn't think i had made myself that unclear. Men and women alike have needs to bond with others of their own sex in whatever way(s) their culture indicates. I just used golf because that was the topic in the thread and conjoined it with lion-hunting because that is a pretty universally known male activity in tribal cultures of Africa. The last time I played golf, I played with the NC Women's amateur champion. I could putt better but that's about where the comparisons ended. Don't even talk about Annika.... I think those men have a right to play golf at a men's only club-- you and I aren't getting in there anytime soon..... let's sue! This kind of segregation is normal and healthy I might add. I would characterize protest as an initiator of change not as an inhibitor. I read on this board a lot of what I would dub "idolatry of protest." There is too much right with America... too many good things being overlooked in favor of special interest agenda which is wed to protest. Go America!
One of the things that pisses me off about this whole "women fighting for equality" thing is the fact that they get away with more or just as much as men do, but it is never questioned. Up here in canada, and maybe in the US too, there is a gym called "Just Ladies Fitness," if guys had a gym called "men only fitness," females would say that it was sexist and that they weren't getting equal rights. Then at a go-carting place that i go, women get in free every thursday night, if men got in free and women had to pay, i'm sure that there would be some sort of argument over why women were being treated unfairly. Then in the Canadian national anthem, women are fighting about line "in all thy sons command," saying that it should be changed to "in all thy offsprings command" or somethin like that. Really, are they gonna try and get the Bible wording changed so that we can all be "fishers of people" instead of "fishers of men"???' Seriously, this is a bunch of crap. i treat women fair in all that i do, i respect their right to vote, to run for presidency, to have their own special gyms and all that...but when you have those rights, don't b**** over the little stuff. For goodness sakes...go make your own "females only" golf course or somethin so that you can b**** about how you are being unfairly treated there...cuz i don't want to here about it in public anymore...i've had enough. Please don't get me wrong, i love women , but private clubs should be allowed both ways, and all that wording crap (in all thy sons command)...don't worry about it, i'm sure you would be allowed to make a song just about women sometime, alright?
Oh come on giddy, are you really going to whine about the "bad widdle wadies" who want to ruin the boys' fun, then accuse me of being intolerant? Hmmmmmm... I have no problem with men gathering to play golf, hunt lions (?) or whatever gentlemen like to do when they're alone together away from the world's prying eyes. And no, I have no interest in "engineering" a single-sex society (as if I were capable of that). The ONLY thing this thread is about CBS featuring a golf club that refuses to allow women as members and the women that have every right to question that decision if they wish. As much as it seems to pain you, we still have the right to protest anything we see fit. Go America!
1. What does the Augusta's policy have to do with the Masters? Most of the competitor's in the tournament are not members, and they want to be too. Women are not allowed to enter the tournament, but they aren't allowed to enter any other PGA event either. 2. Is it reasonable for women's groups to protest all male clubs? Certainly this discussion has revealed that we all believe we have a right to protest what we 'don't like.' But is it REASONABLE? Why can't men have clubs without women members? We are different after all, yes? If I want someplace to go and NOT be around women, why is that bad? As some others have pointed out, why is it illegitimate for women to have all-female gyms? Should I be able to FORCE them to change? In my mind FORCING them to do it whether by legislation or by economic sanctions is unjustified. I see no reason ALL people should have access to ALL areas. Especially not one based on leisure. Equal work for equal pay, sure. Equal access to education, sure. Equal access to public facilities, including golf courses? Absolutely. Equal access to private property? Uh, no.
<b>Mrs.JB</b>: These men have been peacefully playing golf for decades at their private club. Now a few women want to object and the men are the whiners?!?!?! That doesn't follow. The men are not the intruders into what is their legal right and which causes no harm to others. Explain to me then, how you ARE being tolerant of the wishes of the members of Augusta National.... I'm waiting. At least we agree on: Go America!
