Woman raped and jailed in UAE sues

Your question is, from the way I read it, "How much influence (or lack thereof) does Islam have on nurturing extremism versus environmental factors such as poverty, education, etc?", is this correct?

 

I guess you could phrase it that way, as I am not sure how to better define it myself without becoming cumbersome.

That being said, my question was really more along the original tangent regarding cultural stagnation. You stated that attributing this to religion was inaccurate. I agreed, but postulated that Islam may be an influence, although any determination of the significance thereof would be debatable.

In reference to the above I would argue (and history I think would provide examples to support) that Islam promotes this cultural backwardness (your term) inasmuch as it stands to benefit by keeping the society tightly tied to religious identity and control. This is not something unique to Islam, it's a facet of humanity that is constantly at play - power structures and all that.

Ergo, one could argue Islam has had a role in perpetuating extremist ideology per various leaders/imams/etc' rational support of a system/culture that lends them considerable power, which I believe was ATW's point (although he clouds it with inflammatory verbage). At the same time, please keep in mind the other posts of mine I linked to that perhaps better explain that such a statement should be tempered appropriately with the knowledge that most claims to religious authority are used as justifications for political causes. Which would bring us back the argument about poverty/education.

I'm not being clear at all, I'm afraid. Let's just say that I think it would be erroneous to simply declare Islam not a factor in a regions' cultural stupor. Is it the only factor or the main factor? Probably not.

 

An interesting afterthought:

If we agree that rationally an imam/leader/whatever would seek to maintain a culture that empowers him
AND
If we agree that religions are justifications and not usually a direct cause of extremism...

There develops a paradox in which the religion justifying the extremism is counterproductive to the goal the extremism is theoretically pursuing. I'd argue this is exactly what is occurring in many "hardline" Muslim nations. In that case, it would appear far more difficult to exclude the influence of Islam from blame because the extremism then becomes mere exploitation. ...Although you could always blame the leaders and not the religion (another point I have made elsewhere that, while technically possible, reeks of an escape clause).

 

Could you elaborate on this? Not sure what the "goal" you're talking about is.

 

If one assumes poverty and lack of education is a major component of extremism (as is detailed earlier in the thread) than economic growth/stability and educations would be the "goals". Except that a religious leader would not want too much of that as their power would diminish considerably (e.g., the Catholic Church in the mid century).

 

No you see you are messing up two things here. I'll divide into two sections to clarify.

1) I am in complete agreement with you that the law is terrible. There is no "rape shield law" as they call it. The accuser is not protected, which makes the whole system piled against her or him. I am in 100% total agreement that the law is a piece of crap. In fact, in the case as described, this woman was technically not jailed for rape. So me, you and the law are in agreement that a woman should not be jailed for rape or an accusation of rape. Where me and you STILL agree is that being jailed for consensual sex is wrong, but this is where the law disagrees with us both.

So there are two laws.

Firstly, she is the accuser in the case of rape, and therefore she is clearly innocent, was not arrested for it, was not convicted for it.

In parallel to that there is a law saying that extra-marital sex is illegal. The test for rape can show 3 things: there was sex and rape, there was sex but no rape, and there was no sex at all. The way the law has been structured, if you get "there was sex but no rape" then you are breaking the law. Furthermore, there was consumption of alcohol without a license which was illegal. I assume there was also a test for drugs, and the tested negative. If you are enforcing this draconian law, then they are correct in arresting her for breaking the law.

I'll finish off by repeating for the millionth time. These are not my views of how things should be. I am completely against the legal structure, and I am just lending my knowledge of the law to clarify things for others here. I AM AGAINST THE LACK OF PROTECTIONS AND THE ILLEGALITY OF EXTRA MARITAL SEX. I AM FOR "INNOCENT TILL PROVEN GUILTY" FOR ALL THE LAWS.

2) Now this is where I think we disagree based on your last post. As an outsider looking in, my personal guess based on the things we know if that she was not raped. I don't know what you think, but I think you think she was raped. If so, it would be nice to hear why, because maybe that would change my mind. But based on what I know, which is basically what you know plus experience in the country, I am guessing that she was not raped. I wouldn't condemn her to jail. I was wrong to say that "she is lying", and I should have said "I believe she is lying". That's all. I genuinely feel that, given the "facts" we are aware of, it is more likely that she is lying, than it being a case where they could not or would not prove rape or consumption of drugs. I'm not making a legal claim, I am guessing.

I hope that clarifies. The last thing I would want is for someone to be poorly treated that way, or for someone to face the injustice of such a silly law as extra marital sex being illegal. Again, I'm glad she's suing the hotel, and I hope it puts more pressure on the powers that be to fix this mess of a legal system.

 

Except that they don't believe poverty and lack of education are major components. They believe poverty and lack of education are results of laziness, western/religious imperialism, or just not as important as remaining strictly religious.

 

I agree, it would be blind to ignore the role Islam has played. I guess we can keep digging and get to the more raw question of "Is Islam more succeptable to be used as a tool for extremism compared to other religions?".....I would say unfortunately yes. There are ideologies in Islam that can be easily twisted such as Jihadism. But "Is Islam inherently violent?". No.

What makes Islam different than Christianity? An easier seperation of church and state. I think a religious revolution on the order of the Protestant Reformation is in burner for Islam. Just as this reformation came after the Crusades for Christianity, I hope a ground roots movement starts as soon as Muslims in 3rd world countries realize that these so called Imams and religious leaders are frauds and this "holy war" against the "west" has no real religious basis.

 

IDK Mathloom - in a thread with a victim who claims rape and is subsequently jailed for 8 months for speaking out about it and put through hell - you have chosen to say you disagree with the law and the women is lying. I think it really sucks you believe she is lying. And since you tried to explain your thoughts so descriptively I believe its probably just a fundamental difference in our views/value of women that no amount of internet babble will help.

 

i'm still curious what kind of 'rape kit' could ever prove a rape. It can prove sex (and thus a crime -- oh and what an unjust law that is -- but at least it wasn't punishable by stoning, yippee, and, you know, it's the law and all) and it can match dna with individuals, but rape? Not unless it had some tivo like time shift recorder and four independent witnesses.

crazy.

And UAE is not some assbackwards poverty stricken region. Assbackward, apparently so, but economically well off enough to know better. US foreign policy has nothing to do with the injustices this Australian woman endured. There is nothing 'unfortunate but understandable' here, even if she willfully had sex and then reported it (which she would do because?????). Simply wrong. And this is a potentially higher profile situation involving a foreign woman. Imagine the hell the local women endure.

This isn't just some different way of perceiving the facts, or different cultural view of morality and law enforcement. It's wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. There's no wiggle room here. None.

 

Likewise.

 

Yes, thus the paradox. Religious leaders need the poverty and ignorance to remain empowered. This is a ridiculous conflict of interest that essentially results in exploitation of the cowed populace.

 

I can't believe Mathloom thinks the woman is lying. I can't believe he actually compared this to smoking pot "everyone does it". Wow.

 

This is hardly the first time...what's interesting is how often he can pseudo-apologize, repeat what he said again, and then move on like he's somehow rectified the situation.

 

How are you and your 18 cats doing? Btw, do you leave them with your neo nazi friends when you travel?

 

Can we PLEASE STOP callously throwing around the word nazi like it means nothing? Look I dont agree with ATW as much as you do but refrain from dumb namecalling like that.

It bothers me to no end that people just drop the word Nazi like it means nothing. The Nazis were responsible for the greatest system of genocide in modern history. Leave it at that, They are unparalleled and no poster that I've seen on this forum is even remotely close to that.

I know its easy to get frustrated by his responses but that doesnt make it ok to say stuff like this.

 

Did you miss the times he called people Islamists and fanatics?