Just a few points for those that are reading: Why would someone eat a BLT openly at a company when she knows it is against company "culture"? I mean, did someone go over to her, and say "let me check to see if that is bacon"? I don't think so. I think what probably happened was: a) She made a conscious effort to get caught. You know people have done crazier things to get noticed or to file a lawsuit. or b) She thought it was wrong to have such a policy. If she did, isn't there better ways to persuade upper management to change the policy? If you know the rule and you don't agree with it, you either go somewhere else or you don't do it! or c) She couldn't control herself. The deli BLT sandwch was on sale that day. Couldn't pass up that opportunity. In my experience, very seldom is something so translucid. I bet she wasn't one of their better employees. One way or another.. she was on her way out.
Still, As an employer I would NEVER think of telling my people what they can and can't eat. That is just plain stupid. DD
Bad example. If the woman knows damn well before ntering the company that she has to wear a cross, then they have every right to fire her if she doesn't. Just like this smartass either (1) knew about the rules beforehand or (2) didn't bother to go through company policy. Blah blah... You are not allowed to cover up in France I believe... Why isn't that a bigger deal?
Because that is a security issue, someone needs to teach you how to compare like things. You are an apples and oranges comparison shopper, for sure. DD
I think it's a matter of where company policy should begin and end. I mean, if Microsoft tomorrow says that company policy is that no one can eat meat in company buildings or bring meat of any kind into the building and all caffiene products are banned, as well, it can quickly become quite limiting to workers. And from there, no telling where you can go in limiting behavior of the employees that has nothing to do with the workings of the business. For that matter, if I can ban someone from eating pork, can I also not require them, as part of company policy, to eat pork? If I start up a business tomorrow, can I require my employees to eat a big piece of bacon every day? I mean, that's company policy. If they don't like it, they can quit, right?
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!! Maybe you are afraid of girls who cover their hair, but they're certainly not a security issue. The reason for that rule is to avoid seperation among students at schools....
Put yourself in the company's position. Who's doing the favor, you or the employee? You don't have to join a company that has these rules. If the rules are so bad that you don't join, a lot of people won't join, and the company will eventually be wiped out. However, if these rules exist and the company still doesn't have a problem hiring people, then the law is not too extreme. The supply and demand always ends up working out.
I thought it was a big deal in France, by the way. Their Government's ability to impose something on a minority of their public isn't really related to whether an American company can require a religious-based banning on their employees.
Yes. That's exactly why every company is a worker's paradise and no one ever puts up with things that bother them and why government regulations on overtime and other worker's rules are completely unheard of.
The thing is, I see where this thread is going before it gets there.. "Islam is forceful" Islam has a ton of rules, fine. But no one forced this woman to eat unclean meat and no one forced her to join a company that has a policy against it. Whether it's religious or not is insignificant - I know TONS of people who don't eat pork just for their own health, nothing to do with religion. They just don't consider pork clean. But since it's a rule in Islam, this is going to become a big deal... I, for one, won't be sucked into this conversation because it will only end up with DaDa saying that the rules were written by man despite his total lack of knowledge on Islam.... I'm already at that point in another thread.
So what, adding more and more restrictions will fix this? Where does it end? There should be restrictions on extreme cases (like the ones you mentioned) but this isn't one of those cases.
Capitalism baby! Businesses should be able to run their operations the way they want. If you don't like it... don't buy it from them. The only caveat, that business cannot infringe upon the better good of the majority. I know MadMax et al. Here I go with my economic principles.
Allowing for more and more FREEDOMS for INDIVIDUALS will fix it. Individual liberty is kind of what we're supposed to be all about, not freedoms for corporations at the expense of individual liberty. Islam has a ton of rules, fine. But no one forced this woman to eat unclean meat and no one forced her to join a company that has a policy against it. Whether it's religious or not is insignificant - I know TONS of people who don't eat pork just for their own health, nothing to do with religion. They just don't consider pork clean. But since it's a rule in Islam, this is going to become a big deal... I, for one, won't be sucked into this conversation because it will only end up with DaDa saying that the rules were written by man despite his total lack of knowledge on Islam.... I'm already at that point in another thread. I don't care who write the rule or why it's there. It's a rule that should not be exercised on someone as a condition of their employment at a company in the United States. And since we do have religious freedom to a degree in the U.S., the fact that the rule at the company had a religious reason for existing, it will make a difference in the eventual case. But even without the religious underpinnings, the rule is wrong. It is a rule that has no impact on the business at hand and should not be allowed.
It is a rule that has no impact on the business at hand and should not be allowed. Mr Paige, How can you say that? Are you there? How do you know their core business? Law of Supply and Demand will solve this.
What core business would require a no pork at work on lunch breaks policy? I can't think of any. But if it is necessary to their core business to not allow workers to eat a certain food at lunch, then they'll have a much better case. The reliance on the law of supply and demand is one of the big failings of conservative theory because there are time when it doesn't work or doesn't work quickly enough to be effective. I mean, the Rockets could decide tomorrow that they don't want you to be able to watch Rockets games anymore. So they refuse to sell you tickets, they get your cable company to block your access to the games and do everything they can to stop it. How does Supply & Demand help you at that point? That's a ridiculous example, but the fact is that companies can get away with a lot of things for a long time without it impacting the bottom line at all. And sometimes it never will directly effect the bottom line. It's a fact of life that many people are, at times, desperate for a job or desperate to keep a job. They put up with all sorts of things they shouldn't have to because they need money to live. Yes, they make a choice to put up with stuff but it's largely because, for all intents and purposes, they have to. It's one of the reasons we have anti-discrimination laws. And those laws are often the ones that push society forward into not accepting a certain kind of discrimination. Without some protections, there are several advancements that likely would not have come about (or taken longer to do so). It's a nice theory to think that a company will be forced to pay through the natural workings of the economy for their discrimination. In practice, it's a lot harder to be certain of that.
What is unclean meat? It was pork, and we have the FDA that makes sure that all meats are clean before being consumed. What does Islam have to do with rules of a company? Seperation of church and state is the rule of the land in the USA. Companies are not allowed under our system of government to set unreasonable rules, and this one is very unreasonable. She certainly did not have to join the company, you are right there, but once she did, she should not be told what she can and can not eat, that is simply ridiculous. As for the covering up issue, I think all students should wear a school uniform, then we would not have any problems with Gangs or people that can't afford $200 tennis shoes etc.....make everyone wear the same thing. DD DD
1) They target Muslims! 2) Future revenue growth might come from the Middle East! (i.e. Irag) High prices mean high margins for calls to and from the Middle East! Back when I worked at a dotcom, calls to India, Nigeria, Iran, Saudi Arabia,... were the most expensive. India and Nigeria were expensive because companies had to charge a risk premium for all of the nonpayments. In countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran... it was due to supply and demand. I don't agree with the rule. But, their rules are their rules. Most people would not want to work there. Call me cynical, they young lady probably planned this. The reliance on the law of supply and demand is one of the big failings of conservative theory because there are time when it doesn't work or doesn't work quickly enough to be effective. I mean, the Rockets could decide tomorrow that they don't want you to be able to watch Rockets games anymore. So they refuse to sell you tickets, they get your cable company to block your access to the games and do everything they can to stop it. How does Supply & Demand help you at that point? You gave me an example of something that is not possible under capitalism. Your example has nothing to do with the Law of Supply and Demand. If you want to say that you will limit your supply to increase your price or you want to increase your price so you are going to limit the number of seats. OK, but it's not smart because that will not allow you to MAXIMIZE your profits. In capitalism, you have to maximize your profits because if you don't ,someone will come in and do it for you. When they do, you either adapt your you GO OUT OF BUSINESS! That's a ridiculous example, but the fact is that companies can get away with a lot of things for a long time without it impacting the bottom line at all. And sometimes it never will directly effect the bottom line. That's not only a ridiculous example, it is IMPOSSIBLE! It's a fact of life that many people are, at times, desperate for a job or desperate to keep a job. They put up with all sorts of things they shouldn't have to because they need money to live. Yes, they make a choice to put up with stuff but it's largely because, for all intents and purposes, they have to. It's one of the reasons we have anti-discrimination laws. And those laws are often the ones that push society forward into not accepting a certain kind of discrimination. Without some protections, there are several advancements that likely would not have come about (or taken longer to do so). True. That happens everyday. I bet you don't think it is wrong to stop a Muslim at the airport simply because he/she is Muslim. That is OK right? You think American Muslims really have a choice to leave? Deep down inside, all of us know it is wrong... I know this a little off topic but it does happen everyday in America. I DON"T WANT TO DISCUSS THIS BECAUSE THERE ARE PLENTY OF THREADS DISCUSSING THIS EXACT SUBJECT! I'll move on. It's a nice theory to think that a company will be forced to pay through the natural workings of the economy for their discrimination. In practice, it's a lot harder to be certain of that. Not really. Capitalism doesn't differ from Natural Selection. It might take some time, but nature will take its course!
This is definitely going to be one of those threads. Let's get this straight though. THE COMPANY DID NOT SAY THAT THE YOUNG LADY COULD NOT EAT PORK. She could not eat or bring or whatever they said... at work. Big Difference. Again, I don't agree with it... I think they should worry about more relevant issues, but it is their rules. Do you remember the no earring rule for men, what about facial hair,... ?? that has to do with freedoms also.
BigBoy, Agreed, And when part of your job requires you to meet people or be professional looking I can understand it. But, what the hell does eating a BLT have to do with job performance? It is crap. DD
