Can you not answer a direct question? Do you think Clinton was lying about Saddam and his WMD when he ordered the attacks on Iraq? DD
He did lob hundreds of cruise missiles at Saddam and conduct a limited air campaign in 1998 after the inspectors left. The goal was to hopefully unseat Saddam via missile strike or coup... Why?
And still wasn't before we took him out. So, in essence both Clinton and Bush were right for attacking Iraq, and both were just in their trying to unseat him. Thanks Pgabrial. DD
Keep trying to appeal to the anti-French sentiment all you want, but the fact remains that we are the ones telling the world " You're all wrong, and we're right." The exact attitude you accused me of, and I assume that when you did so you felt it was NOT a favorable way to go.... It's not the french...it's most of the globe.
How about this ... The Bush Sr administration was quite deceitful wrt Iraq. The Clinton administration was quite deceitful wrt Iraq. The Bush Jr administrations has been quite deceitful wrt Iraq. I am sure the answer that you seek is in one of the above three lines.
What I really don't understand is why there is no great sense of urgency on behalf of the admin. If there are WMD's and we haven't found them yet, wouldn't you be pretty antsy until we did? The whole search seems a rather pathetic attempt to find something to quiet the critics instead of a legitimate fear that WMDs could be out there and might fall into the wrong hands.
MacBeth, I thank you for posting this, I absolutely can't stand the "well everyone believes it, it must be true argument". I'm black, and when my black friends and I get in an argument, and I'm in the minority, and they say I must be wrong I always use your first example. Then they invariably ask "why are you always bringing up stuff from history?" And I always respond, those who do not study history or doomed to repeat it. Majority rule is never the be all end all.
If you base all your arguments in history, you will not be getting to far. I am more optimistic than that, I actually think that mankind has learned something from history, and that is EXACTLY why we attacked Iraq...BEFORE it became a global affair. The USA in the first half of the 20th century was more isolationist than global. I think we learned that we are part of a larger global community and whatever effects them effects us as well. We took out Iraq to make a point and to stop an oppressive regime, it is a paradigm shift due directly to us learning from history. Never before in history has one army been so powerful and had such a technological advantage on the rest of the world, AND (the major point) not wanted to conquer the world. The key is that we don't want to control the world, and that is why history is not totally relevant in today's matters. DD
MacBeth, you know full well that France threatened other nations with blockage of EU membership in the future if they didn't support France. Also, for you to say that the US is telling the world that "you're all wrong, and we're right" is ridiculous hyperbole. Many of the World's most influential nations sided with us in the Iraq conflict. Your bias against the United States is showing.
MacBeth: We're not the ones ignoring intelligence and past history, are we? It's one thing to believe you're right, it's another to believe you're right while effectively saying "And there's nothing you can show me that will change my mind"... RM Tex: Uh, that would be "warmongering sapling", Tex. No Worries: In other words, We bad Americans have been lying for 13 years, and poor Saddam was the innocent victim of our bullying? I will never understand why you hate America so much. Perhaps like the people at Gallup they know it's not that big of a deal?
I brought this up last night and you failed to respond. The question asks, "The war is justified even without evidence of WMD": 80% Republicans agreed. 52% Independents agreed. 36% Democrats agreed. The margins are very close. You make it out to seem that an overwhelming majority of Americans feel that the war was justified, when in reality, that is not the case....Not even close.
rezdawg: How do you figure a 44% spread is "very close"? That is "very far" by any statistical means. But at any rate, that is not relevant to the question of whether or not Americans think WMD is relevant. There is another question that deals specifically with that issue: In an April 5-6 poll, 58% said the war would be justified even without evidence that Iraq possessed WMD, a 20-point increase. In the current poll, despite continuing controversy over the failure to find the weapons, 56% of Americans continue to take that position. Only about a quarter of Americans are suspending judgment on the war pending the outcome of the search for weapons of mass destruction. Those who feel the war was justified whether or not WMD are found outnumber by over 2:1 those who believe it is only justified if WMD are found, and those who think it was justified whether or not WMD are found still ounumber both those whose support is conditional on finding WMD and those who flat out didn't think it was justified combined. Either way you cut it, the majority of Americans think that the war was justified whether or not WMD are found. And if/when WMD are found... You will be in a very small minority indeed. I would have thought that was clear. It is not a complicated poll.
Uhhh...No. Not quite. When I said the margins are close, I was referring to the percentage of people who felt the war was justified even without evidence of WMD compared to those who felt otherwise. I figured that was easy enough for you to understand. 56% of Americans are taking that position. This means that 44% are opposing it (100-56=44). Its a close race. Remember one thing, Americans have grown up in an era that has had the US on a pedestal in relation to the rest of the world. The U.S. has always been #1 in the minds of its people. Thus, a war with Iraq is a reassurance of this fact. Therefore, when the American people see victory against a weaker country, they are more inclined to agree with the decisions leading up to go to war. I probably didnt pay good enough attention to the poll. Do you mind showing me where it says this? From the poll, "At the beginning of May, Americans were more positive than they are now -- 86% said things were going well, compared with the current percentage of 70%, suggesting the news stories have had some modest effect. The percent saying things are going very well is down to 11%, from 30% less than a month ago." As you can see, the opinions of the American people are changing. Another month of bad news from Iraq, and the numbers will favor my "small" minority of people even more.
Then why did you post the numbers on partisanship? No, you did not make that very clear. Also, 23% believe that the war will be justified if WMD are found. Only 18% believe that the war was totally unjustified. That means that a solid majority believes that the war was justified, while another 23% will jump on board when WMD are found. That means that that 23% hasn't bought any of your so-called moral or political excuses for being against the war, and will swith based solely on that issue. When the weapons are found it will not be close at all. Also keep in mind that as time passes, fewer and fewer people seem to care about the WMD issue. That is the significance of the 20 point jump. It does not bode well for the "unjustified war" crowd. Losing people by the day. Perhaps true, but totally irrelevant since the war is already over and you can do nothing to change this. Simple math. 56%:23% - OK, it's not exactly 2:1, but I didn't feel like using a calculator... I will agree that the administration is bungling the PR aspects of the postwar situation, and that bothers me. They are allowing the media to run rampant with stories about Iraqi anti-US protests without countering them with factual accounts of how many Iraqis truly want us there; they are allowing the WMD issue to get blown out of proportion without countering it (this issue, as the polls show, is not hugely important, but every bit counts); they are quick to report any mishap or ambush that involves injured US troops without putting it into perspective... The media representation on what is actually going on inside Iraq has been terrible; the media has yet to report anything good there, even though as far as occupations go it has been a pretty damn good one so far. The anti-US sentiment is actually quite small, order has been restored, Iraqis and Americans are working together successfully in virtually every area of civil control - yet none of this is being reported. The administration had better begin to counter the garbage we're seeing come out of media outlets before that number slips too far. Still, 70% is pretty damn good. Your minority will remain one for the forseeable future.
Your percentages are based on IF weapons of mass destruction are found. Yes, I will give it to you that at that point, there will be a wide margin. We are not at that point yet, and its not a sure thing that we ever will be. Until then, its a 56% to 44% standoff.
Still a majority any way you cut it. Two things: 1) The majority of the minority is conditional and subject to changing its position, and 2) The majority position (WMD issue not important) is growing. The fact remains: the majority of Americans don't care whether WMD are found - they still think it was justified - and fewer Americans care about the WMD issue every day. The main reason I posted this poll was to counter the growing sense on this BBS that Americans are suspicious of the Bush admin and that they are getting angrier that no WMD have been found yet. This poll indicates that neither of those ideas are true of the general population. As always, this BBS really is not representative of the country. Or at least not this section of the BBS...
The poll doesnt agree. "At the beginning of May, Americans were more positive than they are now -- 86% said things were going well, compared with the current percentage of 70%, suggesting the news stories have had some modest effect. The percent saying things are going very well is down to 11%, from 30% less than a month ago." Whatever...It doesnt matter. Gotta go play World Series 2K3 on Playstation.
