1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Wisconsin Legislators Leave State to Prevent Vote

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by rocketsjudoka, Feb 17, 2011.

  1. tallanvor

    tallanvor Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,686
    Likes Received:
    11,734
  2. Refman

    Refman Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    13,674
    Likes Received:
    312
    I agree with you in principle. The problem comes in when you look at the practicality of it. Where are we going to get the extra money? In many places, property values have been dropping, thus eroding the tax base. At the same time, goods and services are getting more expensive. It is a recipe for disaster. It is possible to shift money from things like athletics, theater and other extracirricular activities. That comes with its own problems. One thing we do know is that there is no more money. Things must change or these states will go broke. There is already a movement afoot to change the law to allow states to file for bankruptcy protection. That would have ripple effects throughout the bond markets. Not good.

    All of that being said, I am all for having better teachers. I believe that if you want to teach chemistry, you should be required to have a degree in chemistry. Having teachers that have not fully mastered their subject is, IMO, a large part of why we are getting our asses kicked in education, particularly in math and science.
     
  3. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    27,105
    Likes Received:
    3,756
    I would love for us to spend more on public education, but not in a system where performance is currently so low and terminating people for low performance is so hard.

    Give the system a major overhaul that reflects the current times and i would fully support a massive increase in spending on it.
     
  4. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    51,802
    Likes Received:
    20,459
    Again in most states there are thousands of teachers being laid off each year. That happens in other fields too, but it is hardly job security. Their pensions help compensate for the their below market salary.
     
  5. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    51,802
    Likes Received:
    20,459
    Simply spending money isn't going to make the difference. Spending more money on the right things will make a huge difference.

    Having more and better training for teachers should be number one. Having more teachers to reduce class size should be number 2. Integrating technology is a huge cost but an important investment to make and should be number 3. Having additional support staff to help the teachers free up time to devote on lesson development, planning, and less time with copies, hunting down supplies, and all of that should be number 4.

    Focus the increase in educational spending in the right areas and you will see results.
     
  6. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    45,153
    Likes Received:
    21,575
    Much of the issue with public employee compensation seems to be the pension benefits. Like with Social Security and Medicare, it seems a big part what's going on is that governments made "defined benefits"-type promises based on a lower life-expectancy calculation (and lower medical cost inflation calculation) than turned out to be the reality. This may be a legacy of the fact that those benefits were structured at a time when life expectancy was lower or may be caused by short-sighted legislatures/officials who tried to reduce current financial burdens (like salary) by trading them for burdens in the future.

    It's not a just a teacher issue. Mayor Bloomberg in New York is wrestling with the police and fireman's unions over pension benefits as well. He's not, as far as I know, politicizing the issue like Walker has done and is not facing the kind of massive protests that we are seeing in Madison. New York had a fiscal problem, and a fiscal solution is being discussed-- heatedly, too, but without the WI-like circus.

    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/02/09/pension-fight-heats-up-between-bloomberg-unions/

    The nation, of course, has to deal with social security and medicare shorfalls in the coming years.

    In any case, we can debate pension and other benefits issues. We can also debate the merits of unions in either private or public sector. However, what Walker does in WI is not helpful to a productive discussion/debate and is not solving any problems.
     
  7. tallanvor

    tallanvor Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,686
    Likes Received:
    11,734
    http://teachersunionexposed.com/protecting.cfm

     
  8. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    45,153
    Likes Received:
    21,575
  9. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,167
    Likes Received:
    48,334
    Such as how executives of companies who lose a lot of money still get paid quite a bit?
     
  10. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,167
    Likes Received:
    48,334
    Those are great points. The Wisconsin unions have said they agree to the financial terms that Walker is asking for. Personally I wouldn't support these protests if this was about the unions staying with the status quo of their pay and benefits package. What is raising the ire the unions and those supporting them isn't so much that their benefits are being cut is that doing away with collective bargaining.
     
  11. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    51,802
    Likes Received:
    20,459
    Losing their jobs for poor performance is one thing, but that isn't the only area of job security. STate budget shortfalls are causing thousands and thousands of teachers to be laid off.

    For the record CEO's run companies that lose huge chunks of money and yet are given millions of dollars in bonuses and stock options. They don't lose their jobs either, and if they do they are given huge severance packages.
     
  12. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    51,802
    Likes Received:
    20,459
    Oops you beat me to it.
     
  13. tallanvor

    tallanvor Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,686
    Likes Received:
    11,734
    And companies that continually pay bad employees too much go out of business. This is how the private sector works, not the public sector.
     
  14. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,167
    Likes Received:
    48,334
    Apparently that doesn't apply to Wall Street.

    Also just to add to the LA Clippers, Detroit Lions and NY Knicks.
     
  15. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
    'A union member, a CEO, and a member of the Tea Party are sitting at table. In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the Tea Partier and says,"Look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie.'

    thanks Mike!
     
  16. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2006
    Messages:
    27,105
    Likes Received:
    3,756
    You have gone off the deep end.
     
  17. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
    Does "too big to fail" mean anything to you?
     
  18. tallanvor

    tallanvor Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2007
    Messages:
    18,686
    Likes Received:
    11,734
    I am not sure you know what that phrase refers to.
     
  19. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
    I have no doubt Doctor that my definition is much different than yours.
     
  20. Dubious

    Dubious Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2001
    Messages:
    18,318
    Likes Received:
    5,090

    I would love for us to devote more of our GDP to CEO compensation, but not in a system where performance is currently so low and terminating people for low performance is so hard.
     
    1 person likes this.

Share This Page