I don't know that I've ever seen so much misinformation/incorrect information in one thread (which is extra sad when you consider it is currently only two pages long). First, we start out talking about Morey's history of drafting wings and we include Von Wafer whom we did not draft and actually came to us as a fourth year player. Then we completely over-gloss the fact that all of those other guys were taken either late first round or in the second round - where most players fail to even remain on an NBA roster (and yet Budinger is now an NBA starter in his second year). All of this in the OP. Then I move on to see Stephon Curry referred to as a wing. He plays point guard. The Warriors are given credit for drafting Azuibuke. They didn't. In fact, he went undrafted and even played on the Rockets for a stint before landing with Golden State. Grievis Vasquez is mentioned as a freshman when he was a senior, Patrick Patterson a senior when he was a three year player.... Morey is mentioned as having an aversion to International players when he traded for Scola, signed David Andersen, attempted to trade up for Rudy Fernandez and Ricky Rubio, just traded Aaron Brooks for Goran Dragic, and drafted players that haven't made it to the NBA like Leunen, Lull and possibly Eliajhu (sp and did he draft him or CD?). Perkins and Erden are listed as stocky under-sized big men when they're not. And to top it off, people keep mentioning Ish Smith like we drafted him. We didn't. He went undrafted and I'd assume we paid him pretty close to the league minimum (notice how I said assume? That is because I am not absolutely certain I am correct and I am not going to bother to search out the facts. You guys should try this some time) ON AND ON AND ON. Seriously, I know this is a fan forum and we aren't professional journalists with fact checkers - but if you're going to act like you know what you're talking about, it might not hurt to do a quick google search once in a while.
I think the underlying assumption - that there is a GM out there who always manages to pick the player still available who will have the best NBA career - is the fundamental flaw here. Good talent evaluators draft better than bad GM's. Maybe even just "marginally" better. They aren't perfect. I don't really have the inclination to do the research, but I think it would be interesting to compare DM to some other GM's during the same time period, taking into account draft position.
Any source? I've not heard Morey define $Ball as the stats only. I've always heard him talk about the stats as an important piece of the decision making process. Replace $Ball with decision making process in my last post if $ball is truly only the stats portion according to Morey. Eww. Bradley, Vasqueaz, and Whiteside over Patterson? Yes, they are younger, but not better. Dorsey was not as good Jordan, but Dorsey is still in the league and looks to be hanging around for a while. The same can not be said for every Fr/So drafted before Dorsey like say Donte Greene. Dorsey was not a bad second round pick...there were a few better. Brooks and Landry have outplayed several younger guys that were drafted before them. Patterson and Aaron Brooks are the only guys drafted in 1st round by Morey. These guys weren't mistakes. Chase Budinger is a starter as a late second round pick. How many Fr/So were drafted before him that are not starters? I would say this number is much greater than the number of Fr/So starters drafted after Dorsey.
Exactly. picking players involves a large dose of chance and luck, like hitting a baseball. A good front office will not bat 1.000 and a bad one will not bat .000. The difference really is who is batting .300 (or, if you want, having an OBP of .400) and who is batting .200.
Well first of all thanks for correcting the spelling. I didn't realize I spelt "heel" incorrectly until you pointed it out lol. Secondly I decided to include Lowry, Von Wafer and Jordan Hill because just like rookies they haven't played a lot in the league and thus are unknown. LOL I know some people are raising a hissy fit about Wafer already being in his 4rth season in the league or Lowry being drafted by the Grizzlies, but what I'm trying to talk about here is DM and his staff's ability to correctly predict how good unkown players in the league will be. I never said the Rockets drafted Lowry or Scola or whatever, but in effect that's what happened: they got them from obscurity (i.e. international prospect or being the backup pg of the grizz) because they saw something there which is what drafting is really about. Ish Smith wasn't drafted by us technically, but since he went undrafted and we sent him a camp invite its more like we were goint to draft him but the draft ended.Azuibuke was indeed drafted by us but since we let him go for nothing I give the real credit to GS, who actually saw he can be a good player and picked him up after we dropped him for the guy currently in jail for choking his neighbor. Finally, please take note that I'm not saying DM and his staff suck at drafting/evaluating unknown players. Quite the opposite, however if you put his drafts in a curve the wing player he picked mostly ended up as "fails", esp. if you include Brad Newly, Martin Leunen and all the other obscure wing guys we drafted. All the rest about DM only picking juniors or not getting internatiol players...well that's totally BS. I'm amazed at the amount of DM drafting superstitions on the board lol.
No. The Rockets didn't draft him. He went undrafted. He played in the developmental league. He played with the Nuggets for a stint before playing with the Rockets and then finally landing with the Warriors. Also, Kirk Snyder has been released from jail. :grin:
My guess is that some of you all really struggle with logic. And need spoon fed. The bottomline is this. * Luis Scola was a drop-dead gift to Morey. I'm tired of explaining how Manu wanted the advanced-aged Scola and his Gold Olympic medal brought to the NBA. And how the idiot management of the Cavs passed on the offer by the Spurs. Scola in no way qualifies in a conversation regarding the experience level of collegiate players. Scola was a trade for V-Span and NOT remotely associated with a Rockets draft selection. End of topic for all those with logic. * Unless or until one you all can produce a Rockets' draftee that makes the roster on less than 3 years of college...you have absoultely zero agrument that $Ball does not over-weight (over-value) collegiate experience. For the logically-impaired...my naming of players drafted after Rockets' picks is NOT the point. There ARE players available to the Rockets with 1 or 2 years of college experience. There are threads started nearly every day about "the Rox need this guy" or "that guy" or I live in Blah-blah City and Joe Player should be drafted. Unfortunately for "Joe Player"...he's a Freshman and stands ZIP chance of being drafted by Morey. That is my last comment. When the draft approaches, I will start a "put up or shut up" thread on the topic with a Tip Jar bet. We'll see how many of you step up. Or fade into internet obscurity
Wrong. Because so far your argument seems to be "The most important thing is to draft a freshman/sophomore. Whether that player is any good isn't as important as the fact that they're a freshman, and so POTENTIAL." You can spout that foolish line and pine for scrubs like Avery Bradley and Hassan Whiteside. Meanwhile I'll take the useful player in Patterson, even though he's a junior. Because maybe I'm wrong, but the point of the draft is to get the best player possible. It's not that hard of a concept. Seriously, name a good freshman that we missed out on aside from DeAndre. And he's just one example - you can hardly expect one to get all your picks
1) Name a Rocket drafted by Morey to keep with less than 3 years of college experience? 2) By prepared to roll out your checkbook (assumimng you have one) during the next draft. 3) End of discussion. Just save your $.
GATER, the Rockets only had one lotto pick since Morey came. And he took Patterson. Are you disputing that Patterson was not a good pick and that there were better underclassmen available at that spot? All other picks were late first rounders and second rounder. In that range, all high potential underclassmen are usually gone. What's left are low potential guys. Among these people, it is not unreasonable to take the players who can already play rather than taking chances for very young guys. You keep saying that we have no argument until Morey draft a fr/so when the sample size is so small. For you to have an basis for your argument: bring out all the fr/so players who were picked AFTER the Morey picks and are clearly doing better than the Morey picks.
Rockets could have (and arguably should have) taken Rudy Gay in 2006 instead of trading for Battier. Morey had a hand in that, and according to some orchestrated the entire deal.
I certainly can't argue the history (though, I don't think they originally intended to trade Donte Greene...), it's not irrelevant to bring up two points: 1.) In terms of value, Moreyball may say take college juniors/seniors with late picks, as the bust rate of guys who jump out of college early even though they aren't high draft picks is pretty high 2.) With 1.) in mind, the only high pick we've had was Patterson last year. You named a couple of guys who were "freshmen and sophomores". As others already pointed out, Vazquez certainly didn't qualify -- you also brought up Avery Bradley. As someone who watched the majority of his games at UT, he didn't do anything to justify being a lottery pick. You keep harping that we "could've" picked a freshman and sophomore, but at least for last year, the question is, who? Here's the list of first rounders who were freshmen or sophomores drafted after Patterson: 16) Luke Babbit 17) Kevin Seraphin (Intl, but I included him since he's 9 months younger than Patterson) 18) Eric Bledsoe 19) Avery Bradley 22) Elliott Williams 27) Jordan Crawford 29) Daniel Orton So, 7 guys over the next 15 picks. Which of those should we have drafted? The only one that sticks out to me as a possibility was Patterson's teammate, Eric Bledsoe. It's entirely too early to tell, but none of the others stick out to me as guys who have shown much in this league. Please, GATER. I'd love for you to go back over the Rockets recent draft history, and point out the underclassmen players the Rockets passed on in recent years. http://www.nbadraft.net/nba_draft_history/index.html I've gone through, and I'm just not seeing them. Joey Dorsey over DeAndre Jordan was a flub...is that all we've got? Steve Novak over Daniel Gibson in 2006? Taylor/Llull over DeJuan Blair in 2009?
And your only response is..... "LOL BEING A FRESHMAN IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN BEING A GOOD PLAYER" and insults. You whine about not getting a freshman, yet you can't name a freshman we should have gotten. Why am I bothering to respond to someone who just closes his ears like a child?
Simple, until very recently, we never needed wings. We had a franchise SG and Battier/Artest/Ariza anchored down SF.
I don't what you are all arguing about so much when it is clear as day that Morey's Achilles heel is the fact that Yao has an Achilles heel.
