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Wings: DM and his staff's achilles heal

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by roslolian, Mar 6, 2011.

  1. roslolian

    roslolian Rockets Only Fan

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    With the way the team's playing, I expect that this year we'll either make the playoffs as an 8th-6th seed or miss it by a small margin. This will make our draft spot anywhere from 14th (just like last year's) to the late twenties. While I do have extreme confidence in DM and his crew's drafting capabilities in that range, I'd really appreciate it if they don't draft wing players. For some reason or the other, DM and his stuff just can't figure them wings out. Consider these examples:

    1) Von Wafer
    -talented player that DM picked from SL. Unfortunately was a headcase so it didn't pan out in the long run. Who knows how good Strawberry would have been in his place, maybe we'd still be playing him now after all IMHO Strawberry outplayed him in SL.

    2) Nicolas Batum
    -We got our hands on this guy and instead of keeping him, traded him away for Greene and Dorsey (as a throw-in). A mistake IMHO, mainly because we could have had a special player and let him slip through our fingers.

    3)Greene
    -For some reason DM liked him more than Batum. Put up 40 pts in SL, but disappeared right after that. Good thing we got rid of him while his stock was high

    4) Jermaine Taylor
    -Was supposed to be Wafer with a brain, but turned out to be a poor man's wafer instead. That summer Mr. Alexander went gangbusters and spent 12M on 4 guys. So far only 1 panned out (1 tbd), maybe why Mr. Alexander stopped being "predatory" this year? I know I would have been disappointed after spending 12M and only getting 1 useful player in return.

    5) C-Bud
    -Yeah I know C-bud's been playing great. However remember that we drafted him as one of the last players of the draft, something like the 62nd pick. If Les didn't shell out 9M for 3 picks, we would have missed out on him because we spent our first two on Wafer and the pg in Spain.

    So that's a small sample size, however consider our track record with pgs (Brooks, Lowry, Ish) and forwards (Landry, Scola, Patterson, Hill) and its night and day. I know Battier, Courtney Lee and Kevin Martin were brought in under DM's reign but these guys have already played in the NBA and even I could have told you all three players were good acquisitions. Its not like DM and his staff have improved on this either, they didn't go after Anthony Morrow last summer but then went and spent a lottery protected pick on T-will, who quite honestly is playing like crap and having mental issues. Contrast this with GS's drafting staff, who seem to which wings fit their system (Curry, Morrow, Azubuike, Ellis). Or Boston who concentrates on undersized, stocky big men (Erden, Davis, Perkins, Powe).

    Hopefully with the wings we have now DM and his staff will stay away from drafting wing guys, 'cause they kinda' suck at it.
     
  2. jsmee2000

    jsmee2000 Contributing Member

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    Why do people on this board always think that because the Rockets drafted a certain player that they wanted him and that somehow a trade miraculously was crafted later. Is it not plausible that the Rockets already had a deal in place before Batum was drafted at that spot? In other words, if Batum is available this is a deal that we, Portland, have for you...

    Also, just because a player plays above average in one team does not mean that the same success will translate for a different team with a different system in place.

    My $0.02...
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. RudyTBag

    RudyTBag Contributing Member

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    Batum=Greene=Artest=Ariza=Lee

    I am good with that, considering Artest could have made us a legitmate ring contender if McGrady had been healthy. Batum and Greene not so much.
     
    #3 RudyTBag, Mar 6, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  4. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    He's looking like a decent backup in the one Sac game I saw. Not bad for where he was drafted.
     
  5. morpheus133

    morpheus133 Member

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    It's not like we have been passing up on all star wings in the draft, or blowing lottery picks on the ones we have picked. In fact the wing postion is our deepest spot so I doubt drafting another wing will be a priority.

    No GM in the history of the NBA is going to get the absolute best player possible with every pick they ever make when you judge those things in hindsight.
     
  6. mazinger

    mazinger Member

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    You're doing it wrong. We traded Batum to get Greene so we could get Artest. Artest turned into Ariza who was flipped into Lee. How was that bad?
     
  7. Kojirou

    Kojirou Member

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    Batum is better than Lee. There's really no contest, and this is coming from someone who is always :rolleyes: at Portland acting like he's worth a top 10 player.

    That said, just having Artest for that period in time makes up for it. We don't defeat Portland without Artest, so that was critical for winning that series.
     
  8. kjhwang

    kjhwang Member

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    I didn't know their achilles tendons were injured.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. UTAllTheWay

    UTAllTheWay Member

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    I don't understand what the problem is with Von Wafer. He isn't here anymore, but who the **** cares? He was signed to a one-year deal, during that time he was a big part of the team's success. After that deal was over, the Rockets let him go. After which Wafer disappeared off the face of the planet, and is now buried deep on the Boston bench.

    Sounds like a success to me...

    And give it up with the Batum thing. Batum lead to Donte Greene, who was the final nail in the Ron Artest trade. Ron Artest helped the team to their first playoff series victory in a decade, and had Yao not gotten injured in the second round, who knows what would have happened.

    Jermaine Taylor, I'll give you that one...

    There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Chase Budinger pick at this point.
     
  10. BetterThanEver

    BetterThanEver Contributing Member

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    They had more success with wingmen than PG.

    You are excluding Courtney Lee, Shane Battier, and Kevin Martin because they already played in the NBA. However, you are including Kyle Lowry, Von Wafer, despite them starting their career as Rockets in their 3rd/4th season. Jordan Hill was drafted by the Knicks.

    Lowry was drafted by the Grizzlies. He was in the middle of his 3rd season with the Grizzlies, before being traded to the Rockets. He started 30 games for them and was pretty good.
    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kyle_lowry/career_stats.html

    Von Wafer was a veteran free agent on 4 different teams, before he started his 4th season on the Rockets.
    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/von_wafer/career_stats.html

    Jordan Hill was drafted by the Knicks. Rockets were trading T-Mac, and NY was the only team willing to take T-mac's expiring contract and give them draft picks, young players and get them a replacement wing in Kevin Martin in a 3 way-trade. Rockets had no other choice of PFs for the 2010 draft. That's all the Knicks had.

    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/jordan_hill/career_stats.html

    Here is the Rockets record with drafted and signed undrafted players.

    PG:
    Brooks was a starter.
    Ish Smith played one game for the Grizzlies and is riding pine now.
    Llull is undetermined.

    PF:
    Scola is a starter. He was a rookie with the Rockets, so it almost like being drafted by the Rockets.
    Landry is a 6th man and was a starter.
    Patterson is a lottery pick that gets 10 mins a game.
    Dorsey is riding pine. DM missed out on starter DeAndre Jordan with Dorsey's pick.
    Maarty Leunen is a bust that can't even get in the NBA.

    Wings:
    Budinger is a starter. Battier was traded away to give Budinger more time.
    Taylor is a 6th man and has been a starter, after TE got injured. He dropped 21 pts, about week ago, as a starter. He is only in his 2nd season.

    Newley is a bust.
    Temple is a bust.

    For wings, he had a 2 players, draft picks or undrafted FA, that are starters or 6th men.
    For PFs, he had a 2 players, draft picks or undrafted FA, that are starters or 6th men.
    For PGs, he had a 1 player, draft picks or undrafted FA,that turned into a starter or 6th man.

    At least, Landry, Scola, Taylor and Budinger are starters or 6th men.

    Brooks is the exception for the poor PG draft.

    Artest supposedly had way more mental problems than Batum. Artest had a reputation of being a headcase by the whole league, except Adelman. Batum couldn't sniff Artest's jock. If the Rockets get a chance to flip Batum for Artest, they take the risk all over again.
    Artest is a special player that took us to the 2nd round. Rockets might have gotten to Finals, if Yao didn't get injured in the playoffs.

    Thread should be retitled :Point Guards: DM and his staff's Achilles' heel(spelling corrected).
     
    #10 BetterThanEver, Mar 6, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  11. Rip Van Rocket

    Rip Van Rocket Contributing Member

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    This is just Monday morning quarterbacking. You could do this with any team in the league. When drafting and trading players, all teams have both success and failure. Not drafting a player of a certain position because past players haven't panned out is ridiculous.
     
  12. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    Cutting Mobley was a late second round pick, and he was phenomenal on the Rockets. Chase's low draft position should not be used against him.
     
  13. BetterThanEver

    BetterThanEver Contributing Member

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    Artest was not turned into Ariza, then into Lee though.

    Artest was on the last of his contract. Yao Ming broke his foot in the playoffs. Artest went to chase rings with the Lakers and signed a cheap contract.

    Ariza was signed with the mid-level exception as a free agent, just like Brad Miller.

    It's Batum to Greene to Artest.
     
  14. GATER

    GATER Contributing Member

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    That's not going to happen. One of the tenets of $Ball is drafting the BPA. If the BPA in the coming draft is a SF or PF...that's what Morey will draft.

    But don't worry. $Ball has a built-in preference for 3 and 4 year college players over 1 and 2 year players. So no SF/PF. It'll be a 4 year PG. (And I'm not meaning Ish returning).


    You might consider it "Monday Morning Quarterbacking". But I guarantee you there are some billionaire NBA owners who regularly fire GM's who miss too many times.
     
  15. seeingred

    seeingred Member

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    artest didn't just turn into ariza. it's not like we used him to get ariza. batum to greene to artest... and then artest walked.
     
  16. BetterThanEver

    BetterThanEver Contributing Member

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    Rip has a point, though. He is cherry picking teams with lottery picks with the DM's picks, which have been in the 20s or 2nd round picks(no 1st round pick one year). Of course, Golden State and Boston will have better performance with lottery picks than picks in the 20s. However, Golden State's picks have sucked for what they could have gotten compared to other lottery teams.

    It's dumb to fault the Rockets for not drafting Stephen Curry, GS's 7th pick, when they had only the 32nd pick, Jermaine Taylor.
    If Rosolian's example of Curry, Morrow, Azubuike, and Ellis are the best options from their drafting staff, when they could have drafted Kobe, Garnett, T-mac, Amare, and Nowitzki.

    It's a complete failure on GS's drafting staff. They should all be fired. They would have better luck throwing darts at the lottery board. They could have had multiple rings, even if they were 50% right about 5 of those guys. They gave up rings for more lottery balls, only to fail to draft a worse player than what's on the board again.
     
    #16 BetterThanEver, Mar 6, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  17. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
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    Moneyball is about using every resource available to adequately value players. The Rockets have not had a chance to draft a 1/2 college year player because teams that are worse than the Rockets take them. Other teams have drafted horrible 1/2 year players before the Rockets got a 4 year player that actually is in a rotation today.

    The Rockets have tried hard to get higher picks for the likes of Favors and Cousins.
     
  18. BetterThanEver

    BetterThanEver Contributing Member

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    You are comparing GS's drafting of lottery picks to DM's drafting of 2nd round players.

    Let's see how they did compared to other teams in the lottery.

    It's not so pretty. They always managed to get into the lottery and come out with crap.

    They missed several franchise players:
    Kevin Garnett
    Kobe Bryant
    T-mac
    Nowitzki
    Amare Stoudemire

    They missed out several fantastic players that were not franchise level:
    Wesley Person
    Kirilenko
    Arenas
    Tony Parker
    Carlos Boozer
    David West
    Josh Smith
    Danny Granger
    Rajon Rondo
    Joakim Noah

    They had very poor drafts, in relation to their high draft picks, over the years. They managed to miss out on almost every all-star available to them in the last 15 years.

    They even screwed up the last draft by choosing Udoh(3pts 3 rebs) over double-double center, Greg Monroe.

    http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2009/6/22/901354/golden-state-warriors-1st-round
    I don't include Boston, because Daryl Morey has been helping them draft before getting Garnett. He actually helped them with the plan. Boston had missed some great players in the 90s. They had some really high draft picks.
     
    #18 BetterThanEver, Mar 6, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2011
  19. NIKEstrad

    NIKEstrad Contributing Member
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    What's your point? Everyone else missed on him the first time around, too -- and he was the 44th pick, not the "62nd" (which doesn't actually exist). And please provide a source on the 9M -- undisclosed cash considerations are undisclosed.

    What has Ish shown? Patterson nor Hill have played nearly enough to have a track record. Wafer and Jermaine Taylor are as proven, if not more so than those three.
    :confused:

    So Morey is bad at acquiring wing players, except for the good wing players he's acquired? Right.
    Anthony Morrow is one of the few wing players in the league who would make our defense worse. Where would he have gotten playing time? At SG ahead of Martin or Lee? At SF ahead of Battier or Budinger?

    And I don't understand criticizing Williams when you consider Hill a part of Morey's good track record at the 4? They're both projects.
    Curry is a point guard.
    This makes as much sense as the rest of the post. Erden goes 7-1, 240 -- hardly undersized or stocky. Perkins is a long 6-11, 280-290, also not undersized or stocky. That leaves Davis, who at 6-9 is not undersized for a 4, and Powe, who left Boston 2 years ago. You could have said the same thing for the Rockets with Hayes and Landry.

    Their track record of drafting wings is:
    Donte Greene (late 1st)
    Jermaine Taylor (early 2nd)
    Chase Budinger (late 2nd)

    Greene is starting in Sacramento, which is about what you'd expect from a late 1st rounder. Taylor is in the rotation, and Budinger is now starting. They haven't hit a home run (though Budinger playing heavy rotation minutes as a late 2nd rounder is excellent, imo), but that's about what I would expect out of those draft positions, if not a bit better.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. worzel gummidge

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    LOL, late second rounders aren't busts.
     

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