You said it! I care about American soldiers, more than a lot of people do. My boyfriend was one (for a while). But if you notice, most of them WANT to be in the armed forces. Most of them BELIEVE in what they're doing. Many of the families say, "At least my son/daughter died for what (s)he believed in" or "doing what (s)he loved." I believe in my country. I want to live here. I like my life here. I feel so blessed to have been born here. I think it's the saddest thing that some people around the world don't have the same opportunities that I do. So I'm a sheep because I feel this way? I don't feel this way because someone told me to. I am a human being living in a democratic society. I can think whatever the hell I want to. I CHOOSE to think in this manner. Just because you take the other side of the fence does not make you any better than me. You can be a blind follower on either side.
Like Pavlov's dogs...I ring the bell; you start salivating. I love it! Unless, of course, it's the neocons doing the demonizing, right? Well, they've compared their deaths to a "bloody nose" and said they could care less about the feelings of their family members or did I just "create" that "image" in my head? Hell, I don't know if you do or not. What's more I never said that YOU didn't. I DO, however; think that's it VERY telling that after reading my post, the first thing you did was come over here and scream, "Nu-uh!" Once again, I never called YOU a sheep, but apparently you read the post and decided the shoe fit. Now, you're all huffy. Sounds like a self-respect problem. I can't speak for glynch, but I couldn't care less about shepherding. Other than functioning as a source of amusement, you're of no use to me. Speaking of which, I'm heading out for the evening. As I do love a good laugh in the mornings, feel free to blather a response to this post. Or go pout about how you've been demonized. Either way, it's not like you really matter. I'll find some other sheep to laugh at. As far as wiping your ass goes, I'll pass. But, I'm certainly not surprised that you're having trouble handling it yourself.
Yeah, they went too far in demonizing Saddam. Why are they being so mean to Saddam! If you want to see sheep, go look at a protest.
I got a kick out of MadMax's dropping the ball on personal responsiblity, a mantra of Republicanism. Now he's not responsible for the actions of the people he continues to vote into office. If the voters aren't responsible, who is? The Easter Bunny? Clinton's lying about intern bj's is a serious impeachable offense while Bush lying about justifications for war is? Just a misunderstanding. Also funny on Mr. C's woe is me, poor America being held responsible for what it's done in the world. Republicanism being turned on it's head by it's own followers.
First of all, if you actually read my post, Mr. T, you'd see that I stated that the US has made some bad decisions. Yes, the US has done wrong things in the past! And I do believe we should take responsibility. But you seem to believe that the US is the source of the whole world's problems. You think the US is a rogue nation. Come on, why don't you just admit it? You post constant anti-American stuff all day, yet you never say what's really on your mind. You should be honest. Good luck in getting an anti-American candidate elected though, as you know Dean ain't a real liberal.
ummm...i'm assuming that as someone who supported the war in Iraq and voted for President Bush...you know, the whole neocon regime...that you're necessarily implicating me in as a sheep, whether you intended to or not. huffy? ummmm...let's see...your post asserted the following: 1. we're sheep; 2. impervious to logic; 3. blathering rhetoric (blah blah blah) 4. and lastly (and most offensive)...that we don't care if Iraqi people or American soliders die. yeah...i can't imagine why i'd respond emotionally charged. self-respect problem? not in the slightest...but don't really enjoy the whole demonization thing. i find it quite distasteful. first of all...stop talking down to everyone. this isn't the jim rome show. you're not as smart as you think you are. and most of us aren't as dumb as you think we are. second...i never read the bloody nose thing...do you have a link to that? i'm not doubting you..i just haven't heard that yet. third...why does your opinion count more? i wholeheartedly agree that my opinion is utterly worthless for the most part...but yours isn't? enjoy your evening out.
I get a kick out of calling people out all the time in message boards!! that's a real hoot!!! No...I'm not responsible for other people's actions. I don't blame you personally for Clinton lying under oath. I don't blame Democrats who genuinely disagree with me and see their position as a better means to the problems we face...I don't blame those people when the persons they voted for let them down. Not in the slightest. I'm accountable for me and my family. PERSONAL responsibility, Timing...not your person or any one else's person...just mine. Second...again, you're dreaming. I've never once said that if we found out that Bush was lying and knew he was lying that it wasn't impeachable...in fact, I've said the exact opposite. I've said that if he did that, I'd support impeachment. I don't feel like we know for sure that he personally deliberately lied...but if we find out for sure that he did, you'll get no argument from me. Again...this is making assumptions about how I'll react because you have me grouped in with this image in your head of the big nasty mean conservatives. It just doesn't fit. Sorry to disappoint. I think those here who know me would say it doesn't fit, too.
Actually what I read was this. Right, everything is the US's fault. Are you calling me anti-American? That's like so amazing because I've yet to find a conservative who calls people that. You're like a unicorn, really. But to answer your question, I'm definitely anti-America because there's nothing that satisfies me more than seeing American soliders getting killed every day, our leadership deficit spending us into the Star of Hope, our leadership lying to the public about whatever it feels like, and then having the supportive sheep of said leadership defending those lies by outing the dastardly voices of patriotic dissent with labels like anti-American. You got me man, I'm really an old school Commie.
I'm glad you're not blaming me for Clinton because I voted for Perot. I love graphs and pie charts. I don't know how you can support the "big nasty mean conservative" agenda and then not consider yourself part of the support group responsible for it. Kind of back to your idea that because you help poor people you're not responsible for supporting the party that undercuts them. Of course supporting a party doesn't mean you support all that they promote but I don't see you diverging with the agenda too often at all.
I guess you did not read my second post- "While I don't doubt that the US has made mistakes in foreign policy, and that our effort to stop the spread of communism probably had negative effects on other nations caught in the middle..." Hey, I'm not calling you anti-American, I'm just trying to figure out what you honestly believe. Come on, instead of telling us what you don't believe, tell us what you do believe. Is the US the main problem in the world? Are we a rogue nation? Are the problems in most poor countries America's fault? Or you can just go on criticizing Bush. I know it makes you feel like you are part of the mainstream again, even if it's just for a short while. Heck we can all agree that Bush has made mistakes. We can't ever agree with your underlying ideology, however.
Of course we're not the main problem in the world. Do the results of our involvement in the Middle East disturb me? Hell yeah. Does this administration's policies of preemptive war and unilateralism disturb me? Hell yeah. Am I afraid where we're headed? Hell yeah.
Have you considered that maybe I see different solutions? That maybe it's not that I'm just evil and out to get people...but that I think there might be unintended consequences to certain social programs? That there are other interests and rights at play? I don't want to see people go hungry, Timing. I hate that. I don't want to see people live with shame and pain and hunger and broken families and regret and all that mess. And it kills me to think there are kids going to sleep without food tonight... It really does...I'm just not convinced the government is this big solution for those problems. I don't see the government as a cure-all for the problems that have plagued man since his creation. There is a role for the government...but I'm not willing to grant it unconditional power. I believe in the concepts of limited government. That's why I'll scream right alongside you when conservatives start marching over the 4th amendment in the name of security. The Republican party is, like all political parties, not something to aspire to. I don't cherish the party...honestly, I don't give a rat's ass about it, frankly. I do agree with them on some key issues. And I agree with them more on more of my big ticket issues than with the alternative. As you know...abortion is a really big deal to me. But I'm less inclined to vote against social programs than most I know who are conservative. I'm certainly not one who says the government shouldn't be funding AIDS research or something like that...I think there is a definite role for the government in those activities. If President Bush lied to us...I'm not responsible. I'm sorry..I'm just not. That's a decision he made. And had I known he was going to do that, I would have never voted for him. If I back a policy...and some consequence comes from it that I didn't think would happen, I'm not taking blame for it either. I'm not privy to the information these guys have when they make decisions...particularly in foreign affairs. My frustration here is the tendency to see people here, and elsewhere, as inherently evil because they support a position that's contrary to our own. And to do that while screaming words like "tolerance" and "inclusiveness" just baffles me....because it gets us nowhere.
Timing and/or glynch- What would you like to see happen in the Middle East now? You can't argue against the war, because it already happened. But now that we've fought and captured or killed some main leaders of the Iraqi regime, what do you want to happen? And is is feasible? I'm being totally honest....no hostility at all. I'm truly just curious.
Princess, btw glad to see you back on the bbs. I had a post about just that. To recap. The US should very quickly turn over the whole mess to the UN, the only body that has the legitimacy to try to put the country back together if possible.This is unlikely to happen soon imho as it would require Bush and Rumsfeld to admit their mistakes, though there might be a way to essentially admit this while spinning to the US public that they were right all along. Unfortunately it looks like a happy face has to be put on the whole thing until at least through the 2004 elections and probably through 2008 also. They will try desperately, perhaps with some success, to buy the support of poorer countries that need our money so they can provide occupying troops to attempt to mask the fact that it is a US occupation. This will require: 1) The US to heavily fund the UN occupation and to supply many of the troops. No more UN bashing for the neocons. 2) US corporations including those with close ties to Cheney, Bush or the Carlyle group will have to withdraw and there must be competitive bidding. You can' t ask the vast majority of the world, who opposed your war, to clean up your mess if you want to take all the spoils. As long as the whole world, except for some US Republicans, believes that we did it to seize their oil, no legitimacy can be earned by turning all the oil over to US and Birtish companies no matter how it is spun. Even with this I suspect that Iraq will eventually be divided into three states, ****e, Sunni and Kurdish with Iran having great sway over the Shiite state. Like Yugoslavia and or ex soviet Republics, it takes a strong man to suppress ethnic hatred that hasn't had a chance to work itself out more gradually.
Dealing from strength has its ramifications. We just should not be surprised when things like 9/11 happen or pretend somehow we were innocent and undeserving.
This whole responsibility thing may be best viewed from a collective point of view. We the people in the American Society are collectively responsible for the actions of our government. We just are. Part of the reason that I did not support the Iraq War was the take-it-ot-leave-it terms Bush gave us. I wanted an honest and thorough public debate, especially since a preemptive war lay in the balance. Bush wanted to act for his own reasons and did not want the public debate. I am sure at this point that DaDakota is itching to scream "The US is a Republic, d*mn it!". He is right, at least partially. The US is a Democratic Republic. Our elected officials, if they want to stay elected, will be responsive to the electorate. Needless to say, Bush did not want to take that yolk of responsibility. Back to the responsibility issue, I protested the war since many of the possible consequences of the war were not being addressed by the Bush Admin. As part of the American Society, I wanted us to enter this war with our eyes wide open (if a well informed consensus could be reached). We will certainly suffer any of the dire consequences wrt the Iraq War (if any). We might as well act responsibly.
Part of the problem with this situation is the way things have been done to this point. I'd prefer that as much responsibility as possible be shared with the UN and NATO however since Bush and company have pissed off so many countries that's going to be difficult to accomplish which is one of the reasons I was against this war. We put ourselves out on a limb, apparently to defend ourselves from nothing, and now we're stuck in a terrible situation for probably a decade. However, since we're stuck in Iraq we might as well take the opportunity afforded us by having all our troops there to start dealing with the Saudis and Israelis in an even handed fashion. Excluding Bin Laden, Saudi Arabia and Israel are the two largest problems in that area as far as I'm concerned. When we solve those two problems, Bin Laden will have little left to rally his crazies.
you say potat-O, i say patatah you like tomat-Os, i like tomatas potat-O, potata tomat-O, tomata let's call the whole thing off.
