otto -- i'll speak frankly at risk of offending as well. i don't see much theology from Lakewood at all. i'm not sure they're building disciples of Christ. if the message is "everything's gonna be OK because I believe in Jesus" then they're misleading people. in this world, that's just not the case. in the hereafter..yes. here?? no. and i'm always shocked that churches will preach this when Christ's closest followers were all put to death in the 1st century...when John the Baptist was beheaded...and on and on. It just doesn't "work that way." having said that...i was VERY impressed with Lakewood's efforts to help this community after Tropical Storm Allison. They came through where the city failed, frankly. Second Baptist did the same. Lakewood literally turned their entire building into a shelter. Second sent out groups through neighborhoods to help people clean up. Churches and other community organizations across the city did that. i think Lakewood does a good job of introducing the gospel to people...but i'm not sure it helps them grow past that. i watch osteen fairly often while im getting dressed for church in the morning...not too long ago i told my wife, "that's it...i've heard enough." but curiously...my father loves the guy. my father has NEVER been interested in church. has a very short attention span. he thinks osteen's message is great and he loves how he speaks. he's never gone to lakewood..but he's watched on tv. if osteen somehow brings my father closer to God, then I have much to thank him for.
no..he grew up in Islam...he just recommitted himself as an adult. decided to go deeper into the faith.
And as for the abandoning of religion, Islam continues to be the fastest growing religion based on population growth and conversions, with the growth being higher than the annual population growth.
Max, I don't think this is exclusive to Lakewood. Theology can be defined in two ways: 1. The study of the nature of God and religious truth; rational inquiry into religious questions. 2. A system or school of opinions concerning God and religious questions: Protestant theology; Jewish theology. I don't personally know of any church that follows the study proposed in definition one. Each church seems to choose a dogma and then grinds it into the parishioners. Or, there is no theology at all a la some of the "community" or unitarian synods. That being said, talking to rhester has opened my eyes to the possibility of "learned and open-minded" pastors. But I don't think it is possible in an organized religion - there is too much money, power, and ultimately control. Unfortunately, I really think that the study of Spirituality/God is foreign to a lot of church-goers. Questioning and thinking deeply is seen as sinful, instead of enrichment. My humble opinion of course.
i don't know how we'd ever really measure this with real accuracy. but I remember a study being released a couple of years back or so that said that Christianity was spreading like fire in S. America and Africa, and that it was the fastest growing religion in the world. there are a slew of religions that claim to be the fastest growing in the US, including Islam, Wicca and Mormonism.
Good point. It has been several months. If you think I am truly off base, a better question might be: What churches have I attended? Maybe I've only seen the ultra-conservative "groupthink" churches. But I don't particularly find solace in many of the more "liberal" synods either.
I agree with mr. gootan that the question could be clearer. As far as spirituality goes, most peoples throughout history have understood spirituality as a part of our human makeup. For a relatively short period recently atheism became popular in our culture, amongst the boomers in particular, but that trend is fading IMO. I think that the younger generation is more and more coming to see that trend as simply an aberration and perhaps a form of denial. Who do we look to for wisdom on this, the boomers or the people from all kinds of cultures for centuries before? I submit that the boomers, as a whole, are looking increasingly foolish in the eyes of the younger generations. I suspect that the atheist’s position on spirituality, particularly the sort we associate with the boomers, will come to be seen as kind of an anti-spiritually fundamentalism that mirrors some of the most rigid, anti-intellectual, and tribal fundamentalist religions we have today. If you read the ID threads I think you will see all these elements in the some of the orthodox macroevolutionists, and I strongly suspect that these people are committed atheists and that this position comes from that belief. The younger generations are exploring spirituality in many ways. New Age spiritually became popular for a while. Buddhism has been on the rise. Islam is growing. As mentioned Gaia theory in its various forms is becoming more prominent, and I believe Christianity is seeing a time of renewal as well. It has certainly been deserving of some very severe self-criticism for some time, but more and more that seems to be happening now. Spirituality is a fundamental part of our human nature, it seems to me, and millennia of cultures spanning the globe seem to agree. Personally I don’t even find the atheist blip to be all that interesting anymore. A more interesting question today is, what is the nature of our spiritual existence? I think this is a question a large and increasing number of people are exploring these days.
Give me a break. People cannot be broken into conveniant "sects" just because you want them to fit into your carefully contrived categories. What an inflammatory load of elitist tripe.
rhadamanthus- I don't know about being learned and open minded, thanks I appreciate your comment. I just want to be honest to God, others and myself and share my opinions. I feel uncomfortable, knowing just how little I know and I confess I am more apt to be wrong than right at times. I strongly believe in the Bible as the word of God. And I will stand by what I understand of the Bible, it is a conviction deep in my heart and mind. And I receive that as a gift from God- grace. There are some very sincere and genuine Christians posting here, I fear to leave anyone out but Madmax, Grizzled and the rest encourage me greatly. Thank you to all the Christians who post. IMHO- Christians at times can see their faith more of a relationship than a religion. Where religion has politics, ritual and rules, relationship can be solely based upon mutual love and trust. (Now I realize Christianity is mostly reduced in practice to politics, ritual and rules, don't want to address that) But there is a real relationship that takes place way above any religious activity. It may happen to a Christian along these lines- The love of Jesus Christ is revealed, a conviction sets in and it is understood. (It's like your eyes are opened and you believe) There is a divine love that the Holy Spirit pours into the human heart.Then love and faith begins to grow inside the Christian believer. (These are not necessarily feelings as much as convictions- not so much emotional as an opening of the reason) To prove this to a non believer would be like giving a watermelon to a chemist telling him to go into a lab run every lab test he knows and come back and describe what the watermelon tastes like. Once God's Spirit interacts with out spirit it becomes relational. I can't explain it. Truth is I love Jesus Christ. I can't tell you how He did it, but His love lives in my heart. So do I have a religion? Beats me? Do I have a relationship? No doubts here. Yes, I study the Bible and read it daily and preach it on Sunday. But I can't explain why I love you and others except to say Jesus put this love in my heart. I can prove nothing. God bless you.
This is what I think makes organized religion useless/harmful. Personally, I think that is the right attitude, but I'd take it a step further - I want no part of a "religion", just a relationship. These "religions" infuriate me - for reasons no doubt you've seen me elaborate many times on this board. Thanks for the great post.
Interesting choice of words. You’re objection is to my use of the term orthodox creationists is it? If you look it up I think you’ll find that that’s a proper use of the word orthodox. As for the “inflammatory load of elitist tripe” comment, I’d say that that would be another way to describe how many people are coming to see the position of many atheists. These are people who seem to feel they are above centuries of human history and yet all too often don’t feel they need to support their position or respond to others in any kind of intelligent or reasoned way, and your post is certainly a good example that.
i don't think you're entirely off-base. i just think there are a lot of very healthy churches out there that do a terrific job. many are non-denominational, at this point.
just an amazing post. i suppose it depends on how you define "religion." but my faith certainly doesn't "feel" like a religion to me. don't know if that makes sense to others. but religion..to me...is something that belongs to someone else.
Well said rhester. I must say that I find myself struggling to live out of that grace on some of these issues sometimes, now being one of them, and I’m glad you posted this as it acted a bit like a poke in the ribs reminder for me. It may be time for me to back off on these discussions for a while as I don’t think I get through effectively when I’m frustrated, and I may well be doing more harm than good. When I feel blocked by frustration like this it tells me I have some of my own stuff to work through for a bit.
