I'll make the Catholic church a deal. If they can figure out how to stop ALL rape and incest against women, then I'll support their zero stance against abortion. But until that day, abortion needs to remain a viable option. ------------------
A Recent Poll Found That 55% percent of Americans think Abortion should be Outlawed in cases of Unwanted Pregnancies . But 87% Believe Abortion should be Legal in cases of Rape or Incest . This is cleary the line between Conservative and Ultra-Conservative . (By The Way Jeff I think You just broke DoD's record more Qoutes in a post) ------------------ Introduing the 2092 All Star lineup SF-Jason Lewinski-Clinton PF- Kenny Thomas III C - Jason Williams SG- Jason Williams PG- John Stockton [This message has been edited by moestavern19 (edited January 24, 2001).]
Jeff, I'll go ahead and disagree w/ that one. I happen to believe that termination of a pregnancy isn't the same as removing a lump of cells. Life is goal oriented, every organism defends its genetic code. The child in the womb is programmed by the father's dna to grow as agressively as it can. The woman's body does its best to keep the fetus in check before it kills the host (that little b*stard, trying to kill its mommy). Removal of a fetus is as wrong as digging up a sprouting acorn. You are killing a goal-oriented organism, period. It is horrible, and shouldn't be taken lightly. That being said, I still believe abortion should be legal. ------------------ We're going to stay together until something happens, if something happens. - Sidney Lowe on Shareef's career in Vancouver.
All I know is that I am never going to have an abortion. Beyond that, it's none of my business what the rest of you do. Seriously, though, my former wife and I were faced with the abortion question prior to our marriage. We were in high school, and we weren't all that careful and we ended up expecting a child. For us, keeping the baby (it's hard to think of him as a baby since he turns 12 next Friday) was what we thought our best option (and that's turned out to be the right choice in our situation). But what works for us isn't necessarily the best course of action for everybody. Me, I couldn't handle the thought of aborting a pregnancy that would otherwise result in my becomming a father again. But that's me. It's not my job to tell everybody else what to do. It is unfortunate that we (and by "we", I mean society as a whole, not the message board "we") can't have much of a civilized debate on abortion and those topics relating to and resulting from abortion. We've got two sides that are stongly adamant that their position is the only right way to look at things and who are often unwilling to give even an inch to an alternate viewpoint. My own personal view on this issue and many others is to follow the wise teachings of the Great PJ O'Rourke: Mind your own business, and keep your hands to yourself. ------------------ Houston Sports Board The Anti-Bud Adams Page
Well said mrpaige , The Bible says "Judge Not lest Ye be Judged" Which means Keep your opinions in your pocket or they will bite you in the ass . If you beleive in what is right you might call abortion "murder" If you believe in what is right you might call abortion "A choice" . Rape is a very harsh thing , I dont believe a victim Should have to suffer by bearing an unwanted child , but just dont let the Baby grow and then kill it during delivery . ------------------ Introduing the 2092 All Star lineup SF-Jason Lewinski-Clinton PF- Kenny Thomas III C - Jason Williams SG- Jason Williams PG- John Stockton
timing and mrpaige excellent posts, both! I am guilty of preaching sometimes. I apologize if I get out of hand. I too have had first hand experience with abortion. And yes, it was a decision that haunts me sometimes. But I know, deep down, that it was the best decision at the time. And I'm glad the option was there. Rascal, I wondered when you would chime in. ------------------ 'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'
Okay, while I personally see abortion as a completely and utterly horrid thing in almost every circumstance, (in cases of unwanted pregnancies, I believe that the person should be given the choice, but of course that doesn't mean automatic abortion, either) I don't necessarily believe that it should be made to be illegal. At the same time, I don't think we should regulate guns. It's been said over and over again. This is something that is going to happen by people in dark alleys no matter what law gets made, and then you just make a mockery of the law itself. On the other hand, I don't believe that this is something the government should be funding. Government spending is focused way too much on bringing the lowest common denominator up to par with the rest of us. And what does that accomplish? But of course, this is another fundamental arguement between the liberal and conservative camps. But to answer the topic, Bush will not make abortion illegal. If anything, it would be a horrendous PR move, and he's much smarter than that. But I believe he will make several moves to make the overall economic scheme of the U.S. fit a more conservative mentality, and that includes cutting spending in areas like this. ------------------ "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..." - Mark Twain -
What about the F*CKING FATHER!!!??? Are you kidding me? How is this the mother's fault? I guess if she was raped, she was asking for it. Nice. Very nice. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible.
There shouldn't be Why? Because you want to impose your morality on others? THAT IS WEAK AND TIRESOME! I'll agree with you here. It does seem ridiculous. ------------------ 'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'
Jeff, I think he was talking about the mother's right to have an abortion, not that she had sole responsibility for the child. I think it's a given that it takes two to tango, and that both parents share responsibility for a child. The question is whether the mother, once she's gone bowling, has the right to terminate the pregnancy. I know that it is a totally separate issue, (not that that's ever been done before ) but the father of a child has no choice with regards to an abortion. ------------------ Stay Cool...
My point on overpopulation is that, the less unwanted children, the better. Abortion obviously does not solve the problem, but it slows it down. How are my statements sad? If all the pregnancies were wanted, there would be no hunger, because people would always be in the right situation to have children. That is not the case. You can't keep throwing unwanted children into adoption agencies. They will run out of room. You can't simply dismiss my comments. Overpopulation is a huge issue, no matter what the republicans like to say. Preventing unwanted pregnancies is something that must be allowed to happen. People aren't going to stop having sex, and condoms do break. I'm sorry, but until that fetus is taken out of the womb, they are not officially alive. They are a part of the woman's body. ------------------ "Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death."
Someone wrote on here that they didn't view something that couldn't live on its own a living thing. The fact is, no child, even after it's born, could possibly live on its own for some time. It requires someone to feed it and to nurture it. (yes nurture...read about hitler's little experiments on jewish babies where he deprived them of human contact). The fact is..if you kill a pregnant woman, in many states you be held liable for the death of the child inside. Probate law has accounted for the rights of unborn children for centuries. Doctors in Europe have recently discovered that babies living inside of mom's stomach have memories..they react similarly to the same beats or voices they hear. When my wife was pregnant we went to the Sting concert at Jones Hall. My son danced and kicked like crazy in the womb. I have a hard time not believing that he was a living thing! He was reacting to the world around him, however limited it might be. He reacted to my voice and to my wife's. It wasn't his choice to be brought into the world...but we want to allow a mother to make the choice to take him right out of it. What absolutely sickens me is that some of you would scream like crazy if a seal pup were killed for its coat (despite the fact it too can't live without the care and milk of its mother) but you justify the murder of babies...particularly through partial-birth abortions. I'm very happy to see some of the pro-choicers here having negative reactions to the statement that abortion would be a great tool for population control. I read another study recently that tried to say that crime had decreased because of more abortions. This reminds me of "1984" or "Brave New World" where we justify any means to meet an outcome that is clean and safe. Life is not clean and safe. Life often sucks. But it is still extremely fragile and precious and no one brought into it should be deprived of it against his choice. We have a word for that, and it's called murder. ------------------
Max, You touched on something that is very true - most vegetarian/vegan types are pretty pro-choice, seeing no problems with such views. I think that, at face value, that is a definite contradiction - people who supposedly "love life" so much that they do not kill animals will not love the life of a fetus. Many vegans feel that even amoebas are life that must be protected. I think the problem (for the argument) is that these people will usually not see an abortion as killing because they feel it is not life, etc. This is where you run into the wall - if someone feels strongly that it is not a life, they will be hard to convince. Personally, I would never want to go the abortion route - if my wife got pregnant now, something for which we are not ready, we would have a baby and just make due. However, I think that since abortions will continue no matter what and there are so many polar views that it should not be banned completely. I, ultimately, feel that it is none of my business so I generally keep out of such discussions. ------------------ Big A, little a bouncing B, The System might have got you, but it won't get me.
It was pointed out earlier in this thread that I was probably a guy and that contributed to my view on abortion. In fact, I am. What difference does that make? By that criteria I should be an ardent supporter of this crime. I mean, if I make a mistake and knock up some poor innocent girl, it would be nice to just erase my mistake and move on unscathed. What a great concept, right? The fact is, irregardless of what pro-choice supporters will tell you, the majority of all abortions are crimes of convinience by women who ARE of legal age (20-25 or 27 depending on which set of stats you are reading). Most times there are economic reasons, or perhaps the thought that "I am just not ready yet" "I am not ready to give up my youth" "Its too much responsiblity" etc. This is a problem in our society. People will always want the ability to avoid taking responsibility for their actions. Jeff, you suprise me. For all the karmic, "higher consciousness " crap you spout, you of all people should place a high value on the soul of a human being. I understand the finacial constraints of having a child, coupled with immense responsibility, but allowing women to murder the child to ease their economic concerns is NOT the answer. [This message has been edited by stringthing (edited January 26, 2001).]
Jeff, you suprise me. For all the karmic, "higher consciousness " crap you spout, you of all people should place a high value on the soul of a human being. Fair enough. I do believe in karma and I place a very high value on what you refer to as the soul, but I don't believe in heaven and hell. I believe in reincarnation. I believe that, prior to our birth, we conciously choose our birth (our parents, our birthplace, our problems, etc) as part of that great karmic circle - that means we even choose not to be born. So, before you go judging my "karmic crap," try to get where I'm coming from. It is different from what you believe but it is my belief and you lecturing me doesn't make your argument any stronger. Beyond that, I realize the contradiction. Even the Dalai Lama does not agree with the concept of abortion. I don't like it and would not choose it if it were my choice to make, but I recognize that there is a reality out there of which I cannot control. If abortions were outlawed, they would continue just like drugs and drunk driving. Outlawing drugs has done nothing but get us jails full of addicts. The amount of drunk driving accidents has actually INCREASED despite laws and preaching to the contrary. As to the argument of life, Max you make a strong case. I don't agree with killing animals for MY food, but I can't stop you from doing it yourself. Also, the idea of nurturing is quite different from the act of breathing. Up to the end of the first trimester, the growing fetus could not be saved by any miracle of modern science. No nurturing could do it. It is not alive. I wasn't going to post anything else in this thread at all. Like rimbaud, I feel that it really isn't my business to dig in the lives of other people with things that are this personal in nature. I guess I let the emotions get the better of me earlier in this thread because I've been around too many mothers who abuse their children, drink or do drugs when they are pregnant and live in poverty with their children - and those are just the teenagers. I have seen the unfortunate results of a brilliant little girl turn to drugs before the age of 10 because she was negleted by her mother and abused (physically and sexually) by her mother's boyfriend who cared for her during the day while mom was working to feed her, the boyfriend and her 5 other kids. I guess I am just frustrated by a system that believes in justice for the unborn but not compassion for the living. The moment our society values the destitute, the suffering and the abused, abortions will no longer be necessary. I'm sorry if I sounded pissed. Just because I believe in "karmic crap" as stringthing so delicately put it doesn't mean I'm not human and that I don't have my own contradictions. Fortunately, I've never had to face abortion in my own life and I hope I never do. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible.
By the way, stringthing, I've never called your beliefs "Jesus heaven and hell bullsh!t" (which I don't believe anyway) so I'd appreciate it if you had at least a measure of respect for mine. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't remain civil. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible. [This message has been edited by Jeff (edited January 26, 2001).]
