Why so serious...winners and losers of health-care reform.

They did plenty. They were slum lords, used child labor, had workers die, families torn apart, workers maimed, etc. None of those things benefitted us as a society for ages.

We did benefit as a society from putting a stop to those practices that caused that. Going backwards wouldn't help us, but hurt us.

 

I've never seen my use of the term "neo-feudalist" to describe libertarians more perfectly justified than in rocketman1981's barely intelligible posts.

 

If you want to look at an active example of modern day robber barons and the effects they have on society, simply look at some third world nations. As Sam noted, it's difficult to sound intelligent by associating robber barons with humanitarianism.

 

Absolutely. We can also look at the economics at the time. They drove small businesses down the drain, put a halt on any significant middle class, killed entrepreneurship, increased the amount of poverty in our nation etc.

There was so much wrong with it, that most of the good that came from that time happened to stop it from happening again. The anti trust laws, child labor laws, work environment safety laws etc.

 

Isn't it someone's choice how many days a week they want to work? If someone doesn't want to do something than just quit. If an employer is mistreating their employees, then the employees will go to another company that takes better care of their people and they will work harder and be more innovative and eventually the company will outlast the one that mistreats its employees.

Why should government decide these things. I believe in free will. If I wish to work 7 days a week, why can't I?

If their practices were so bad then why did people buy their products? Why did people work for them? I think the real robbers are politicians on both sides of the isle who pass laws to benefit their corporations, law firms or foreign interests that pay errrrr I mean contribute to their campaigns.

 

In third world nations you have predominantly policital gamers. Guys that leverage the government to stifle competition for their products and services. That is not a free market, but is a sham. I don't blame people in Latin America for going communist because what they see there is not capitalism but political gamers using the government's 'policies' to enrich themselves.

Look at all the 'beverage bottling' and distribution companies, phone systems, taxes on foreign goods etc. They are all funnels of cash to those that have political power and use the government to place a moat around their business.

Bad example.

 

Please read...

 

Lets not bring up Chicago corruption please. In a free market the public would be shocked and people would find a standard or rating for quality/cleanliness of meat.

Its funny how from Chicago Meat Standards to Civil Rights to Enron etc. The market and free will move a direction, and then government comes in to make it more complicated and inefficient. In this age if the standards were reflected as that poor, the information would be present and people would boycott that plant and it would probably go out of business.

Instead we heap costs and government inefficiencies on every other plant and business and consumer instead of punishing those that are run poorly by having them go out of business.

 

Tell me, what brought us to "this age?"

 

No the people had no choice because of price fixing and monopolies in place by the robber barons.

The robber baron period was inefficient, unproductive, restrictive of a real middle class, immoral(It caused deaths, dismemberment, sickness, injuries lack of education). It made an inefficient work force. It destroyed entrepreneurship, and small business.

Again the most good that came out of the period were the regulations to make sure it was over.

 

I don't believe in monopolies. Most monopolies around the world are created with government intervention, tariffs etc.

If a business acts in a monopolistic fashion and prices accordingly then in a free market other vendors should come in at closer to marginal cost and destroy the monopoly.

Innovation, efficiency and pricing will kill any monopoly unless it has government or regulatory backing in my opinion.

 

You should move to china, I bet you would love it there.

 

The fact that government has for the most part stayed out of business. Though they are continually encroaching more and more into the markets in recent times.

I think we've done well in spite of these shackles and excess costs.

 

You don't understand. The robber barons not only had one monopoly they had multiple monopolies. It was not possible for other vendors to compete because their means of production were also controlled by the vendors they were hoping to compete with.

Please do more research.

 

Wrong. We got from The Jungle to Grade A because of a decent press, labor unions, pubic appeals to government, and government regulation.

 

I suggest you take a deep breath, and then re-read what you just wrote. Perhaps you'll realize just how ridiculously detached from reality your theory is.

 

Not to mention transportation... that was a big one for a number of monopolies... the railroad rates charged by Vanderbilt and Gould greatly impeded new challengers ot existing monopolies.

 

I agree press is very important but labor unions?

I just don't agree. Ask someone in the steel belt or Akron or Detroit how the unions have led to a better society for that region. The result of these policies is the outsourcing of US jobs and the destruction of once-vital industries.

Would you rather have lots of entitled benefits for a little bit....oh yeah and then later the industry is destroyed and the jobs are all gone. What was better?

I'm not trying to be argumentative I just have a very different opinion on these matters than you guys.

Appreciate the discussion!!!

 

Then if the price was above marginal cost...wouldn't another come into the market with lower prices?

Eventually it happens. And Vanderbilt BROKE up a government monopoly on the Hudson river by having lower prices.