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Why So Much Hate Against One of the Rockets' Best Playoff Performers Since 1995?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by jbasket, Jan 26, 2015.

  1. jbasket

    jbasket Member

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    Basketball Reference for all the playoff stats:
    So, first cut-off is 20 PPG. You have to be able to bear some offensive burden.

    Names Left: Harden ('14, '13), Dwight ('14), TMac ('08, '07, '05), Yao ('07, '05), Barkley ('99), Hakeem ('98, '97, '96).

    Dare I say that all these guys are/will be HOF players?

    So, now let's say ya gotta shoot above 40%. Kind of embarrassing if you don't, let's be honest.

    Names Left: Dwight ('14), Tmac ('08, '05), Yao ('07, '05), Barkley ('99), Hakeem ('97, '96).

    So, now, due to the important of FT, let's remove the peeps who had below 55% TS.

    Names Left: Dwight ('14), Tmac ('05), Yao ('07, '05), Barkley ('99), Hakeem ('97, '96).

    This is what was always a detriment to Tmac's playoff performances. He had some great performances, but just didn't shoot well. His all-around performance stuffed the box score in '08, but he just couldn't make shots. One argument is that his teammates were bad: another argument is he fell in love with the long 2s (shot 40% of his shots beyond 16ft, but in front of the 3pt line). He was a great passer (ridiculous 49% assist ratio one year), defended well, but man, you have to at least above 50% in TS. Harden had a bit higher TS, but let's not kid ourselves by trying to say his defense was at least average. In addition, his passing was not on the same level in the playoffs.

    Now, at this point; the comparisons cannot be simplified by "cut-off" statistics.

    An easy one to remove is Yao's '07 series. Dwight had averaged more in nearly every single statistic, plus his general paint protection was better than Yao's in '07. Another one is Barkley's '99 series. While marred by Quitten, his overall contribution was not as strong as, say, Hakeem's in '96. Barkley provided zero paint protection, and the sweep does not help his cause.

    Names Left: Dwight ('14), Tmac ('05), Yao ('05), Hakeem ('97, '96).

    1996 did not leave very good memories for the Rockets. One of the main reasons for trading for Barkley was to beat the Supersonics. They had chomped us up and spit us out. Hakeem had a noticeable drop in his play from '95. Which one of the three would you take? Dwight '14, Yao '05, or Hakeem '96?

    '14 Dwight was up a notch over '05 Yao. When considering the two, Yao barely played over 31 minutes; he couldn't stay on the court. His paint presence was not anywhere near Dwight. Small ball killed him because he could not move laterally very well; he was just too big. He struggled so much with foul trouble as well. Hakeem's '96 was also a drop from '14 Dwights. It was not his year, as evidenced by his <10 RPG. His paint presence slipped this game, and his commanding offense was not as strong. It was not pretty watching Seattle that year. I hated their illegal defense, but I can't just excuse the whole series performance because of it.

    Names: Dwight ('14), Tmac ('05), Hakeem ('97).

    At least to me, Hakeem's '97 run is the best because it had the best success, in addition with performance. He really tore apart Utah. There is a reason why Hakeem is... well... Hakeem. However, Dwight and Tmac had some fantastic performances as well.

    Who had a better performance between the other two? You can go both ways. As well as Howard did to salvage the poor perimeter D; Tmac also really did a number on Dirk, and almost carried that terrible supporting cast. Both series had questionable officiating. Those NBA apologies still hurt. Similar PER and WS.

    Which ever way you choose, Dwight had arguably the best playoff performance since 1997 Hakeem. For a man with that performance, you would think people would have more patience with him.

    Dwight hate, in the recent Dwight injury thread:

    You said it.

    You said it.

    You said it.

    Man, never knew somebody could be so happy knowing a player gets hurt.

    The best center in the league is untouchable. Why on earth would he be traded? Why would you trade somebody who performed as a top 5 player in the league last year's playoffs? Oh, quick, trade him for Kevin Love! Because Love has really contributed to winning basketball.

    Nice logic :rolleyes:

    So you must have liked the KMart Scola days?

    Right, because Dorsey really replaces everything.

    You state that he is not the same player anymore, as if his decline was starting to occur before the knee injury. When you assume that even at 100%, he should play like Deandre Jordan, you fail to recognize that Dwight had actually started off well athletically, despite the groin, and just put in the recent playoff series. And please, comparing him to Deandre Jordan :rolleyes:

    Small sample size. Does Dorsey really space the court more than Howard?

    Dorseysanity!!! :rolleyes:

    Lack of playoff performers is also a recurring theme. Who isn't one of those people? Hint, he smiles too much.

    You are aware that his most recent series was also arguably his

    Yea, when you combine elite players at 3 respective positions, creating a big 3, that includes the best player of this generation, you can get away with some things. Let's also not undersell what Bosh brought to the table as a 5. He was a great positional defender, and there was not a Dwight to contest in the playoffs.

    The Rockets will easily, easily be worse on Defense and Offense. Dmo can't hold a candle to either of Dwight's outputs on either end. Come playoff time, I'll be dialing up plays for the proven playoff performer than the first time role player. What happened to TJones last year?

    I didn't know Dwight's post ups made Harden miss shots, Lin lose his handle, and TJones become a ghost. Was I wrong?

    Brilliant.

    Are you trying to make the argument that the offense is negatively affected by railing off 12 pts in post-ups?

    We lost the game because the monsters decided to give LMA their talents, and because Harden couldn't shoot. Dwight's post-ups do not inhibit Harden from making shots.

    Brilliant.

    Didn't know grandpa Nash, hurt Kobe, unmotivated Pau, and hurt Dwight was a team of 4 HOF. Yes or no question: did Nash play all of the playoff games?

    Atlanta Hawks are winning because they have good players in other positions. And Al Horford is their center: did you forget about him?
    Nobody is saying the Spurs core is in their prime. But when Timmy D is anchoring the paint at a high level still, and they have the ball movement, the Spurs "system" is still in its prime.
    Nobody would have said Nash is in his prime if the Lakers had won.
    Dwade was getting out of his prime: did you not witness the knee deterioration?
    Harden is not better than Lebron; remove your homer glasses please.
    There is not a chance we win a championship without Dwight.

    Fun doesn't always equate to wins.

    So basically, unless he is playing basketball, you hate watching him play basketball. Personally, I didn't hate watching him play against the Blazers. Harden on the other hand...

    Trade him for Hassan Whiteside.

    He had missed several games before the playoffs last year, and was able to turn on the switch pretty fast.

    Uninspired? From what, a bad stretch after an injury, where he might still be hurt? That means he has suddenly developed a bad attitude, despite all evidence to the contrary? You're right, ever since Josh Smith came, Dwight clearly has wanted to leave the Rockets.
    I didn't include all of them.

    If cyberx is correct in hinting that Dwight might need microfracture surgery, so be it. If he got hurt, that's just the normal Rockets luck with recent centers. Dwight really needs to get healthy, but nobody can question his toughness. Does this recent/non-season ending injury make it a bad signing? No. Was Dwight's decline happening at the beginning of the year? No; he was actually having more bounce before the knee injury, and was holding opponents to 37% at the rim, well below anybody else. Is it a bad contract? No. Is he the best center in the league? Yes. Message me when Gasol actually averages a 20-10. Or shoots anywhere close to 60% with that average. Not. Even. Close. Should he be traded for Kevin Love? Not. Even. Close.

    Last year, he missed several games right before the playoffs. It did not seem to perturb his performance.

    Two years ago, Kevin Durant and OKC raised their game to make up for the absence of Westbrook. Did that help them in the playoffs? It was clearly not sustainable. In the '99 playoffs, Patrick Ewing got hurt, and everybody wrote off the Knicks. Instead, everybody raised their game to make it to the finals. This is what happened with the Rockets. Since training camp, everybody wrote them off, even with Howard, and especially without him. Do you really think it is sustainable?

    If he is 100%, come playoff time, he will, and he better, get the ball in the post. Let's not forget that the playoffs allow for more physical play. He had so many of their bigs in foul trouble all throughout the series. Why would you be surprised that he would play better with more physical play? How on earth is he offensively inept?

    tl;dr Lay off the Dwight hate: he doesn't deserve it.
     
    3 people like this.
  2. PersianRocket

    PersianRocket Member

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    Someone finally said it. Props to you sir.
     
  3. PersianRocket

    PersianRocket Member

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    I made a similar thread after the Blazers loss. People wanted to blow the team up. We have very dramatic fans.
     
  4. rlmjdime

    rlmjdime Member

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    I just haven't seen it from Dwight the way we did earlier in the season. I hate to say that I hope there is a reason for it, but it would make sense of what I've been watching. The problems with this team go beyond just one player. The defense needs to regain the intensity, which imo, is the top priority. Harden has been a God, and that gravy train cannot be ridden to the glory land.
     
  5. RV6

    RV6 Contributing Member

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    I think you need to consider the sample size. It was only one series, 6 games, and it took him like 2 games to go off.I think it's a stretch to call him one of the best playoff performers based on that. Performances, maybe, but not performer.


    People are just frustrated because it's clear Dwight isn't doing well physically, he's not getting better, and the team is not going to consider moving him. They probably wouldn't even consider it next year either. I think people are just in denial and want to believe it's an effort issue that can be solved with a reality check. It's not, it's physical.
     
  6. cml750

    cml750 Member

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    Hate is a strong word but there are a lot of people "unhappy" with Dwight because he is coasting. He may be injured which if that is the case he needed to sit out to heal before the ankle sprain. Some fans just expect a little more effort, even in the regular season, from a max player. I do not recall Dream or Yao coasting in the regular season.
     
  7. SuperMarioBro

    SuperMarioBro Member

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    TS% >>> FG%

    Did Harden have a TS% below 55 in '13 and '14? Also, any statistical analysis that does not put '95 Hakeem at the top of all Houston playoff performances is invalid.

    Also, Dwight is not the same player he was in the playoffs series so far this year. Lopez has never been able to slow Dwight down, and the Blazers refuse to double team him. So his post game futility isn't *quite* as obvious against them.
     
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  8. BimaThug

    BimaThug Resident Capologist
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    What are you talking about?

    Dwight had 27 and 15 in Game 1, and he had 32 and 14 in Game 2. He was consistently dominant in all 6 games.

    It's just that LaMarcus was MORE dominant in those first 2 games, and the Blazers in general were getting anything they wanted against the Rockets' perimeter defenders throughout the series.
     
  9. roksoer

    roksoer Member

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    r****ded thread. Appreciate the effort though.
     
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  10. SuperMarioBro

    SuperMarioBro Member

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    I do think at least *some* of it is effort, but yeah, much of it must be physical.

    ... And at least as much of it is also the fact that we're misusing him and force feeding him the post. Nothing good comes of that. Ever.
     
  11. Kwame

    Kwame Contributing Member

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    You don't pay a guy whose game can be neutralized relatively easily over $20 million a year.
     
  12. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
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    Great, if that were still the same player, maybe we can get Yao back or Dream?

    DD
     
  13. Rip Van Rocket

    Rip Van Rocket Contributing Member

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    I think you are reaching to say I was hating on Dwight.

    "Rockets scored 64 points in the paint against the Suns. Do the Rockets play better in the paint without Dwight?"

    I was just asking a question. In my opinion the offense seems to flow better when Dwight is out of the line up. I was just wondering if anyone else was seeing the same thing.

    If Dwight played in the regular season the same way he played in the playoffs last season, then no one would ever complain about Dwight in any way. There have been many great players that gave 100% in the regular season as well as the post season. He's getting paid 20 million per year. I think the fans deserve to see the best from Dwight whenever he takes the floor.
     
  14. jbasket

    jbasket Member

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    He did get a 27/15 his first game. I think that was a productive game. Nobody can play perfect all the time. What if I told you Hakeem shot below 50% in 5 of the 7 1994 NBA finals games?

    Over his career, he is a great playoff performer. His playoff averages elevate. When looking at the sample size for the Rockets, how can somebody who performed that well last year not get some lee-way?
     
  15. RV6

    RV6 Contributing Member

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    You're right, for some reason I thought he started slow that series, but i stand by what I said. You can call him one of the greatest playoff performers we've had because it's technically true, but it's not saying much. It's like 20-30 great games in a season.
     
    #15 RV6, Jan 26, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2015
  16. HR Dept

    HR Dept Contributing Member

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    Hate is unwarranted. Critism is in order.

    Consistency is a fair expectation. Injuries happen, but as Rockets fans, surely we can all understand the frustrations that come attached.
     
  17. jbasket

    jbasket Member

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    I recall a time in the early 90s with Dream...

    Yes, Harden did. You could have seen that yourself as well.
    You are forgetting the fact that Dwight started out the year strong and athletic. You assume that he was in this decline before being hurt, but he wasn't.

    Do tell.

    So if we didn't give him the ball in the post, how would we have gotten offense against the Blazers?

    What part of 26/13 is easily neutralized. Also, the price of less-impactful defensive centers seems to be about $12 million. And they don't have near his impact. Easily worth the max contract.

    What evidence would point to the fact that he cannot be that player? You do realize he came into the season more athletic than last year. Other than cyberx, there has been nothing about long term repercussions. I wouldn't be surprised if he sat another 10 games at the end of the year like last year, to dominate again.

    Would you not say he gave effort in last regular season? Only averaged an 18/12. However, in the playoffs, those ticky-tack calls against Dwight disappear, and he is able to dominate. Yes, there is a clear lingering injury issue, but he has never quit on the team.
     
  18. jbasket

    jbasket Member

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    Then why is there so much hate/criticism on a generally very consistent stud who has just had injury concerns?

    How is it not saying much? Saying that an offense running through Dmo will be more productive is completely ignoring that past evidence. Everybody is about to throw the towel on Dwight as if this is a problem lingering since he has signed.
     
  19. Jake Tower

    Jake Tower Member

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    It's disrespectful to refer to McGrady by his Tmac nickname, but not Olajuwon by his Dream nickname.
     
  20. joeson332

    joeson332 Member

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    explain how
     

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