Kobe would average 30 FT in finals if every handcheck was called. In reality handcheck was called against RA only once in the entire series. So Jordan only averaged 37 when the league had 110 and now the league had 97-100, he would average 50-60? And you do believe that?
who said he would aveage 50-60? Jordan averaged 32.6 with 7.3 ft attempts. a 39-40 year old Jordan averaged 20 with 4.0 ft attempts. younger kobe needed 8.7 ft attempts to average 30 ppg in 03. 28 year old Jrdan needed just 7.4 ft attempts to average 30 in 92 it's not so impossible to think a young jordan could averaged over 35+ multiple times.
to add to this the league average wide pace in 90.1 in 97 and jordan got 30 ppg with only 7 ft attempts at 33 years old. the year kobe got 35 the league wide pace was 90.5.
What's so surprising? Before Riley designed this "No layup rule" and it became popular in mid-late 90s, the other team wouldn't foul a player if they didn't have a chance to block it. The fast break style of every team didn't help your FT attempts. Think of 2 Suns team playing each other, they don't need to shoot many FT to get 110. The league of later 80s were exactly like that. More FT, more half court game, less easy points, less total points. Only idiotic fans think more FT help your PPG. Jordan would still dominate if he played in 00s for his prime. But he would have to improve his 3 points shot, he would be forced to make more outside shots. He might average 35 like Kobe did once. But no way he's gonna average 40+ like claimed in those idiotic comments, unless the league literally called every handcheck, which only occurred in 06 finals and 09 ECF.
Jordan's 2nd 3peat is more comparable to today. Although not as tight as 2003 when the league only averaged 93 points a game. The lowest since they introduced the clock (not counting 99 short season). At the same time, that's when isolation basketball was prevalent. Jordan could easily get his points down low by ISO. So did Shaq but the league ruled that's ugly basketball and introduced zone. I am all for getting rid of this handcheck rule. It's a stupid rule and most inconsistently officiated part of game in the league. When strictly enforced, there would be 100 FT in every game. Refs can't do that, so only Stern's babies got it.
jordan scored 20 ppg at age 40 with only 4.0 attempts a game with nothing but mid-range jumpers and no athleticism. wade scored 30 ppg last year shooting 32% from behind the arc by mainly driving and a less consistent mid range jumper imo a prime jordan is better than a 08-09 wade so i dont how is it not fathomable that jordan could not average more than 30 ppg much more consistently than kob wih a couple of 35+ ppg seasons. teams can force players to try and make outside shots all that want but jordan imo would be able to blow past defenders to get in the paint much easier than the 90s with the stricter hand check rules, no defensive 3 seconds, lack of quality big men, and the current game being more spaced out now than back then. it's whatever. you can believe what you want to believe and i can believe what i want. this will do nothing but go in circle anyways. this thread is really going nowhere and should just be locked anyway.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P4Rb_scbotw&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P4Rb_scbotw&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object> When u get to play your first 8 years with this guy, then there is no question.
You are stacking players that played on the same team. Jordan only faced people of similar height and weight (6'5 200lbs) in 4 of the 12 series in his first title run. That only comes out to 1/3 of the time having somebody his size and weight defending him. So I'm not sure how that makes me wrong about saying in his first title run most of the time the players weren't as big as him or as they are today. Let me clarify what i'm saying in case i have misspoke or you didn't get what i mean. It was not the norm for Jordan to play against people his size is what I'm saying. If you think it was the NORM over his career then I have nothing to say to you. I've already established that it was only 54% of the time in both of his championship runs combined with the requirements being 6'5 200 lbs and those numbers are an inch and 15 lbs less than Jordan. Once again Jordan saw some. 54% of the time the people were his size. Kobe sees those guys pretty much every time he steps on the court. Which again goes with my point that Kobe sees a lot more defenders that are comparable size to him than Jordan did. Sometimes that size makes a difference and sometimes it doesn't.
No he wouldn't he has bad shot selection. Gasol actually led the team in Win Shares in the season on both title runs and last season led in PER in the season. He even led the entire playoffs in Win Shares. Yes, Kobe is the best player on the team, however Gasol has had more production which is why his Win Shares is higher. No player on any of the Bulls team ever outproduced MJ. MJ always led in Win Shares and PER. A guy who doesn't have a great cast doesn't get outscored by his own teammate in a game 7 at home or away and score 14 points on 33% FG and still beat a team by nearly 20 points. This was Kobe against Houston.
We are going in circles. Answer me this. Even using your 54% figure, what is the point of mentioning that Jordan didn't see big defenders that much when he still killed the big defenders that he saw anyway? I think this would be relevant to mention if these dudes were stopping him, but they weren't, and he was still an efficient scorer on these dudes as a 40 yr old with no hops. So, what's the point of focusing on it?
Kobe scored 14 points because it's a blow out game, he barely played the 4th quarter, not the other way around. If you want an example for MJ, check 96 finals games 6.
MJ weren't doubled much when he played in Wizards. And there's still no zone at that time. MJ did beat those big guards, but they ain't known for defense. In fact, the only renowned defensive guard in 90s not named MJ was Payton. Today, every team has a defensive specialist on wing. There ain't such guy back in 80s and 90s.
Because Jordan didn't compete and grow with these players. The Kobe Bryant that Jordan played against is not the Kobe Bryant of today. Jordan had very few players of his size competing with him from the beginning of his career and then got some younger players in comparable size near the end. There was Drexler and Nique back then and he did get the better of them but he only had to face them a few times. You put 10 year vet against younger players and a stomping is going to happen sometimes. Put the 10 yr veteran GOAT against younger players and get ready to see an almost guaranteed stomping. I have no doubt that Kobe couldn't have done anything with Jordan between the yrs of 96-99 but I think he could hold his own today. Durant is a beast but look what the more experienced Lakers did to him in the first round. However, if you put a Durant five years from now against that same Laker team I'd be willing to be he does better. Jordan was ahead of his time as far as his size and athleticism goes but there are players today that get close. Byron Russell is a good player and a good defender but he doesn't compare to the Lebrons, Kobes, Artests,Wades, and Princes as far as athleticism goes. There are just so many veteran big guards these days that know how to play against the Jordan size guards. It's a different league now. It's a much more athletic league. Players are bigger faster and stronger and those players have 10 yrs experience like Jordan did back then.
Funny, every team has a defensive specialist on the wing, yet the best wing defender Kobe saw in this postseason was Thabo. The wing defenders for the Jazz and Suns really aren't that good, and Ray Allen and Tony Allen aren't great defenders either (although Boston does have a very good scheme). How hypocritical.
One last thing. Out of all those big guards you named I believe that Majerle was the only one to ever make an all defensive team and I think it was only second team. I have named at least 5 people Jordan's size that Kobe had to play against that were either first or second team defense with many of them being on the list multiple times.
Yea it is funny that the only good wing Kobe faced in the postseason was Thabo, who was second team all defense behind him. What more do you want?
Most of these youngsters arguing never even seen jordan play, just buy his shoes. Jordan is 10x better than kobe who just became the worse finals mvp ever. Anytime people are befuddled as to why you won, there is a problem. I think kobe is a great player and he has 5 rings, but he hasn't made 1 all star. Jordan turned pippen and grant into all stars and magic even turned ac green and scott into all stars. Who has kobe help turn into an all star? Thats what i thought.
Yea, old people are automatically smarter and free of bias You can't seriously sit here and say Pippen was a product of MJ. That's ridiculous. It was a mutually beneficial relationship at most.
You just aren't getting it. You are touting that Kobe had it harder, yet yourself admit he faced one good defensive guard this postseason. The other guys were bigger but not really very good defensively. So as I keep asking, what is the point of mentioning it. "Hey, Kobe faced bigger guys that couldn't defend". Thabo made the 2nd team, but from watching him I can't say he is better defensively than Russell. But since you asked, Dumars and Majerle both made the 2nd team in 91 (he saw Dumars that year, and Majerle in 93). Rodman, who did check Jordan at times in 91, also made the 1st team in 91. Dumars and Rodman both made the 1st team in 92, but I recognize Jordan didn't face them that year. Dumars also made the first team in 93, and Starks and Majerle made the 2nd team that year (MJ saw both in the postseason that year). Payton made the 1st team in 96.
That last post was my bad. I meant to quote you but typed the wrong thing. You said Thabo was the best defender Kobe faced in the playoffs and I meant to type that same response saying that he just happened to be 2nd team all defense behind Kobe so if he wasn't the best he faced it would be a shocker outside of him playing Lebron in the finals. As far you bringing up Dumars my argument was that none of the big people Jordan faced like Drexler, Nique, etc. ever made an all defensive team. Like you've been saying just bc you are big doesn't mean you are a great defender. However, I named plenty of players that were the same size as Kobe that are also known as great defenders and made lots of first and second all defense teams. Rodman also wasn't really known for his perimeter defense so I find using him to be a bit of a stretch. So that still leaves us with only Thunder Dan. I also don't know where you are getting this belief that Thabo isn't a good defender. He is recognized around the league as one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. Jeff Van Gundy, who is a pretty good defensive coach, said that he thought Tony Allen was one of the top perimeter defenders in the league. Also Ray Allen might not be a great defender but he is a good one. The Jazz really didn't have anything for Kobe I'll admit that but Richardson and Hill are good enough defenders to make you work. So in all except the Jazz series Kobe faced big guards that can defend.
