Tell me these 2 guys didn't defend MJ in his 63 points playoff game. And we are talking about a championship team, ain't we? Danny Ainge G-F 6-4 175lb Dennis Johnson G 6-4 185lb I always wonder what a 210lb, 6-6 Kobe will do on them.
Doubling means that you leave an offensive player open. In other words, it creates a vulnerability. That's why for a defender, hand-checking is far more effective than immediately double-teaming a player. As an offensive player, you'd rather face a taller defender who isn't allowed to handcheck instead of a shorter player who is. Look at what happened between Fisher and Allen. The refs let Fisher play physical defense and he totally disrupted Allen's rhythm.
I was assuming that Ehlo wasn't your type of old school defender since he was 6'6 180 and you seemed to think that weight was a big deal back in the hand checking days. Gerald Wilkins was also 6'6 185 lbs btw. As far as Dumars goes, he was a great defender but no matter how great he was it doesn't make up for those extra 3 inches and 20 lbs Jordan had on him. Jordan did face the occasional 6'5 plus 200 lb plus guard but that was far from the norm. I won't even address you bringing up bench players like Ron Anderson when he wasn't the primary defender. Also, i don't get why you keep going back to CJ Miles. Not every player is going to be a good defender. However, Sefolosha is a good defender, Hill is a good defender, and so is Allen. There is no myth about Jordan not playing against big athletic wins for a large portion of his career because he wasn't. You need to go look at the height and weights of these players that you are bringing up then get back to me.
<object width="640" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ihOmTU4c5KE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ihOmTU4c5KE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="505"></embed></object> 6-6 215 pound Dan Majerle was an All-Star and 2nd team All Defensive team that year and Jordan was destroying him. Paul Westphal saw Dan getting destroyed and he tried to put a smaller quicker Kevin Johnson on Jordan because Jordan was just too quick off the dribble, and that didn't work. It got so bad that Westphal tried putting a 6-7 Richard Dumas hoping the length would disrupt him yet Jordan still went off. just some food for thought.
As stated earlier for one defender yes, for two defenders no. Sometimes it is more effective to double than to have one player hand checking you. Hand checking isn't some super ability that allows players to be shut down. Even with hand checking the better play is to double certain players and just leave another open. Ray Allen is not the type of player that hand checking effects. They run him off screens and he catches and shoots. There is rarely an opportunity to hand check that guy. I also find it hard to believe that Kobe would rather have Ray Allen holding him without hand checking with a double coming than to get a one on one iso with Joe Dumars who is allowed to hand check.
And as I said earlier, double teaming creates a defensive vulnerability. If you were to double team Jordan, you'd be leaving either Paxson or Pippen open. Paxon was a very solid shooter and Pippen was a capable scorer. Hand checking leads to a contested, out of rhythm shot. Double teaming leads to a wide open shot. Which one do you think defenses would prefer? It wasnt the hand-checking. It was the physical play. Fisher was allowed to repeatedly bump and hold Allen during those screens. That disrupted Allen's rhythm and his ability to create separation from Fisher. Why is it hard to believe? You saw what happened when Allen guarded Kobe. A few bumps and Allen was in foul trouble. Are you seriously saying that Kobe would have an easier time scoring on a hand-checking Dumars than a non-hand-checking Ray Allen + a double?
That was in the 80s. I believe I stated MJ faced plenty of big wings in the 90's, when he won all of his titles. All of them weren't good defenders, much like all of the dudes checking Kobe in the postseason weren't good defenders. Why did you ignore that part of the post and refer back to the 80s, when I clearly listed the 90s and made a distinction? I'm also curious to hear what defender Kobe faced this postseason that was better than Dumars (91 ECF) or more athletic than Drexler (92 Finals)?
That is exactly what I'm saying. Did you watch game 7? The Celtics were doubling Kobe all night and being the player he is, he still takes the shot which most of the time that night was a horrible shot that he had a very low probability of making. However, if those had been one on one isos with Dumars hand checking, Kobe would have done much better. You can't beat a good double/tripe team as one player, it forces you to pass or take a horrible shot.
When did I say weight was a big deal for a wing player back then? My point is that MJ saw big defenders. Please stop saying that he didn't. It simply isn't true. Didn't I state that he wasn't the primary defender? I brought him up because he averaged 28 mpg in their series that year. That's more than what Tony Allen avg in the Finals (14 mpg). I know you surely aren't trying to pimp Ray Allen off as a good defender??? The Celtics have a good defensive scheme, but Ray Allen is not a good defender. You mentioned Grant Hill as well. The non ancient version of Grant Hill was a good defender. The 37 yr old, 200 surgeries version is not. None of the wings for the Jazz are either. Sefolosha is good, but not some great elite defender. I would still rather have Joe Dumars and Byron Russell then any of those guys. John Starks as well. And maybe you missed it when I asked initially, but what dude did Kobe see this year that was better than Drexler, who Jordan simply destroyed in the 92 Finals (36, 5, 7 on 53%)? Exactly. I keep bringing him up to highlight that it's pointless to say Kobe is seeing bigger defenders if they aren't actually good defenders. Kinda like it's pointless to say teams can zone Kobe when the majority of NBA teams don't run a zone. What is the point of mentioning possibilities that rarely occur? If that large portion is the 80s then you are correct. If that portion happens to include the 90's, where he won all of his titles, then you are absolutely wrong. I already gave you the players he faced in his first two title runs. Here are the rest from his title seasons (I bolded the dudes you claim he did not normally see): 1993 Round 1 - Augmon (6'6, 205) and Nique (6'7, 200) Round 2 - Ehlo (6'6, 180) and Wilkins (6'6, 185) Round 3 - Starks (6'3, 180) Finals - Majerle (6'6, 215) and Dumas (6'7, 200) 1996 Round 1 - Chapman (6'4, 180), Walt Williams (6'8, 219) and Askins (6'7, 197) Round 2 - Starks Round 3 - Nick Anderson (6'6, 205) Finals - Hawkins (6'3, 190), Payton (6'4, 180), Askew (6'6, 210) 1997 Round 1 - Cheaney (6'7, 209) Round 2 - Steve Smith (6'7, 200) and Ty Corbin (6'6, 210) Round 3 - Lenard (6'4, 205), Majerle and Willie Anderson (6'7, 190) Finals - Russell & Anderson 1998 Round 1 - Gill (6'5, 195) Round 2 - Phills (6'5, 210) Round 3 - Miller (6'7, 185) and Rose (6'8, 210)...same duo Kobe faced in 2000 Finals - Russell & Anderson
As I stated earlier, hand checking leads to a contested, out of rhythm shot. Double teaming leads to a wide open shot. Which one do you think defenses would prefer? That's basic basketball. And like I said before, it's not just the hand checking. It's also the general physicalness of past defenses. In game 7, Kobe did take difficult shots, but everyone acknowledges they were poor decisions. There's no evidence he wouldn't make the same foolish decisions against Dumars' hand checking. Also, if you think that playing against slightly bigger defenders w/ no zone is so difficult, please explain why Jordan was able to average 20 ppg against it as a 40 year old man.
I skimmed the first page so I'm sure this has been covered, but anyone who thinks MJ didn't have a post presence during his two three-peats didn't watch him play, wasn't paying attention, or doesn't know anything about basketball. Ho Grant was an all star, won four rings (three with MJ), and was NBA all-defensive team four times. Dennis Rodman was an all star, won five rings (three with MJ), was DPOY twice, and made a bunch of all-defensive teams. In fact, I'd venture to say that you'd be hard-pressed to find such a perfect complimentary inside presence as those two to combine with the 1-2 punch of Jordan and Pippen. Who would have been better as a defensive presence who didn't demand the ball? Deke? Okay, there's one. I'll be damned if I can think of another. The other big men of the era were the offensive focus of their teams and wouldn't have complimented the Bulls as well as Grant or Rodman did because they and their skill set demanded the ball. MJ didn't play with a dominant OFFENSIVE big man, but the thought that he didn't play with an inside presence is just absurd.
who cares? let kobe be his own guy. why is everyone so obsessed with the kobe vs michael idea?? get over it.........does anyone keep arguing sidney crosby is no wayne gretky?? or "peyton manning < johnny unitas or joe montana" or baseball, do people ever argue "derek jeter <honus wagner" or albert pujols is no fill in the blank.
We or at least I am not discussing what is the better team defense. Somebody being left wide open is not being factored into my discussion at all because I am only talking about how teams can take one player away and make players rely on their teammates which Kobe sometimes forgets to do. From a Kobe wanting to be the star and get the stats standpoint the single coverage with hand checking is much better for him. And as far as Jordan getting 20 at the age of 40 that doesn't surprise me at all. The guys mid range jumper was still automatic even at that age. However, if they wanted to take the ball out of Jordan's hands and force him to pass the double would've done that. I'm not saying playing against bigger players and zones is so difficult, I am saying that it presents a challenge to players and it is a good way to get the ball out of a player's hands and force him to pass. You disagree?
Why no mention of the 91 & 92 playoffs? He only faced two players meeting that criteria in those 2 years. So lets do the math. In championship run number one he faced 4 players with that size in 12 meetings which comes out to 33% which is far from it being the norm. Second time around it was 9 for 12 for 75%. That comes out to 13 for 24 which is about 54%. So about half the time Jordan was playing against someone his size with a huge majority of that coming during the second championship run. And I'm pretty sure in my past posts I was commenting more about his first run being the time when the players were smaller but even so we only got to about 50% for his career. So once again it is not a myth that for most of his career Jordan wasn't playing against bigger guards because even in the 90s it only happened 54% of the time.
I don't get why some IDs tried to pretend MJ faced tougher defense in his era. Raptors were trashed for their defense when Kobe got his 81 in 2006. They allowed opponents to average 104 points that year, dead second last in the league. But the league only averaged 97 points. This number was 109.9 in 1987 when MJ had career high season average at 37ppg. And Raptors would be the 3rd best defensive team at 104ppg. Even better than renowned defense of Pistons 104.1ppg. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1987.html http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2006.html So much about physical defense, handcheck blah blah. When a league averaged more points than the best fastbreak Phoenix Suns, I have hard time to believe they actually played tough D.
Its tougher defense because the rule changes, the refs call ticky tack fouls now because of the rule changes in 2004, the lebron era rule changes, which promote one on one defense and give an advantage to the offense as well. Its much less physical, now euro ball is more physial, so stats might not show it, but watch some tape and see what they let go now and then, see the bodying up that was allowed then an not now. Funny thing is before the major rule change, Kobe still played and successful in it too. He can hold his own with his skill set, but the bron's and the new age guys hadn't played it. Only year lebron did, his rookie year before they changed it, and he shot 41 percent and was top in the league in turnovers, btu to be fair he was a rookie too, but just sayin
Dude, let it go. I mentioned who MJ faced in 91 and 92 in my initial post that you responded to. The defenders those years weren't small either. Your past posts didn't mention anything about "only his first run". If you now want to change your tune and argue that seeing big defenders half of the time in his title runs isn't normal, then please explain why he still dominated these big defenders? If the big defenders that he faced still got mopped by him, defenders that he saw half of the time, then what is the point of mentioning that he didn't see more of them? The ones he saw weren't stopping him. For the 3rd time, what big, athletic defender has Kobe faced that was a better physical speciman than Clyde Drexler, who MJ destroyed in the 92 Finals, or Stacey Augman (since you seem to discount the need for the big defender to actually know how to defend)? What defender did Kobe face this postseason that was better defensively than Joe Dumars or Byron Russell?
That is post 136 in case you are curious. Kobe has faced Battier, Artest, Bowen, Raja Bell, Tayshaun Prince, Sefolosha(who was 2nd team all D behind Kobe and Lebron who get it based on name) etc. All of these players were either first or second team defense on at least once occasion. But I'm sure you are going to find some reason to discredit these players because they played in today's game. Also if you want to get real technical and start analyzing Jordan in in his second title run you will notice that all of his great statistical seasons came in the 80s or very early 90s and after his return he never shot over 50% again. But that's not even the point. The entire point of this argument is that both players faced things that made life harder. For Kobe it has been a combination of bigger players and zone defenses. Teams don't always run zone nor do they always have a great defender but a majority of the time they will go to the former or have the latter in case Kobe does get hot. Why you seem to think Jordan for sure had it so much harder escapes me. But I'm done talking because I realize whatever I say you are going to stick with team Jordan had it tougher and refuse to acknowledge that just maybe today's game has its own difficulties.
the raptors had the 2nd worst defensive rating in the league that year. the pistons that year had the 5th best rating. jalen rose, chris bosh, mike james, morris peterson, and matt bonner is a tough defense? LOL i cant believe how idiotic it is for someone to compare ppg against two eras yet ignore pace. anybody who watched basketball back then knows they played at a faster pace but the refs let a lot much more go in terms of fouls. then you use 2006 as a reference when many nba players said 2006 was the worst defensive era year all time. "They got rid of the ability to use your forearms and contact on the perimeter. It's a guard's league now and that's why you see Chris Paul and Deron Williams having so much success. The new interpretation of the rules doesn't allow contact on the perimeter so it's easier to dominate as a guard right now". -- John Paxson "The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas .... [have] all been taken away from the game."- Scottie Pippen “The league wants that. You can’t guard anybody anymore,” Brown said. “If Michael (Jordan) played today he’d average 60 a game, as much as they call fouls on the perimeter. You’ve got to have people that can keep guards in front of them without fouling. It’s unbelievably important now. And now you need guys that can penetrate and play pick-and-roll and get people involved.” - Larry Brown “It’s brought all these 40-point scorers,” Winter said. “They can’t score 40 points unless they get 15-20 free throws.”- Tex Winter "Asked in July if he could defend Jordan under today’s interpretation of the rules, Dumars first laughed, then offered a long pause before replying, “It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game’s being called right now.”- Joe Dumars Michael would average 45 with these rules- Phil Jackson Question for Clyde Drexler: In the current league where there is no hand checking and no ruff play how much better would your numbers be? Clyde Drexler: "Oh, tremendously better, from shooting percentage to points per game everything would be up, and our old teams would score a lot more points, and that is saying something because we could score a lot back then. I do think there should be an asterisk next to some of these scoring leaders, because it is much different trying to score with a forearm in your face. It is harder to score with that resistance. You had to turn your back on guys defending you back in the day with all the hand checking that was going on. For guys who penetrate these days, it's hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do." - Clyde Drexler
That post states that defenders like Russell are dudes MJ rarely faced in his first title runs. As I already posted, in his first 3 runs MJ faced Tucker & Williams, Ron Anderson and Rodman (about as much as Tony Allen covered Kobe in the Finals), Steve Smith & Askins, Wilkins, Ehlo, Drexler & Kersey, Augmon & Nique, Majerle & Dumas. None of those dudes are small. They all aren't elite defenders, but neither are half of the dudes Kobe faced this year, or last year (outside of the Houston series). Battier is a very good defender, and so are Artest and Bowen. He played like garbage against Prince so why are you counting him? I would take Joe Dumars over all of those guys except for Artest and Prince. Are you saying Drexler, Nique, Augmon, Dumas, Wilkins, Rodman and Kersey aren't big and athletic just like the guys you keep saying Kobe faced? You keep noting that it was rare for him to see a big defender, and that simply isn't true. Whether or not I think Jordan had it harder has nothing to do with what I'm posting, which is that you are quite wrong in saying MJ didn't face big defenders. In your analysis you keep claiming Kobe did and inferring that MJ really didn't. In his title runs (the first and second 3-peats) he saw plenty of dudes that were just as big and athletic as the wings Kobe had faced over the last 3 postseasons. That's a fact.
