I'm going to chime in on this again for the Kobe side, alright for the sake of the argument, let's say Kobe is better than MJ. Still, how does that make him the best player ever or even on the five best ever? I think there are a handful of players who had bigger in fact on in-game play than Kobe. Even though, MJ is widely recognized as the greatest ever, it's not necessarily a wash argument. In real gut out argument, MJ could be as low as 5 or 6. I believe all the players below (in their prime) could do more with the post 2004 Lakers teams than what Kobe has accomplished (in his place): Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem Olajuwon, Larry Bird, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Moses Malone, Shaquille O'Neal, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Rick Barry, Magic Johnson, and Tim Duncan. Arguably on down the line I'll even in throw in Elgin Baylor and Dominique Wilkins. I think with any of those players with the weaker Laker squads of the decade, those players would've gotten Lakers deeper into the playoffs than Kobe did (05-07). No way those players lose to Phoenix being up 3-1, or even struggle putting away an injured and undersized Rockets team in 09. There's no way in all time draft I would take Kobe over centers, like Wilt, Jabbar, Dream, Malone, or even Shaq, especially not if they are at their best. If you compare these players in their seven best seasons vs. Kobe's, really the only thing Kobe has going for him is scoring, which is on par with the guys above (not almost another planet better like MJ). I believe NBA defenses even today would have harder time stopping the guys above. Remember, you've got to stop these guys on offense, while also finding away to score against them defensively. There's just something about the efficient game. You give those guys above 25 to 30 shots a game, easily a 40 to 50 point outing. It's funny people are listing Kobe over Shaq, almost any LA team preceding the last Shaq-Kobe team, if it were a younger version of Shaq (Orlando to early LA years), the Lakers steamroll through the league with almost no losses in Western Playoffs. Shaq with Gasol and/or Bynum is a near unstoppable front line. Shaq (young) with even Lamar Odom or Ronny Turiaf is pretty intimidating because of the big fella. It's the same thing with the other centers. Kobe even with all of his magic and accomplishments, is he really that much better than Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird. Again, really the only thing he has on Bird is scoring, which is not by much. While, he almost has absolutely nothing on Oscar Robertson, except circus shots (but Big O in his day could hit some circus stuff as well). Also, consider in those days his assist only counted, when the player did not dribble the ball (it had to be catch and shoot or setup dunk/layup attempt). If he played today, the guy might averaged 16 to 20 assist a game. Also, here's another kicker, his scoring average is almost two points better than Kobe's. Even as late 2000, there was a coaches poll that voted Oscar Robertson (not Michael Jordan) the best NBA basketball player ever. For Jerry West, it is pretty much same argument. Larry Bird did not have Kobe's athleticism and ball-handling skills, but everything else I think he is almost superior to Kobe in each aspect of the game. Maybe slightly better defender. Shooting range (outside shooting, which kind overrated with Kobe), efficiency, passing, making other players better, rebounding, shot selection, post moves, and most of all....clutch shooting. I really cannot see what really can push Kobe over Bird, I'm pretty sure Bird could score 30 ppg a game playing for LA teams, when he does not have to pass the ball. Also, let's look at the hellish teams Bird had to play against in the 80s. You think any team Kobe faced this year was as good as 87 Pistons, 84 Lakers, 90 Bulls, 83 76ers, and so on. Rick Barry is another guy who seems to get lost in the conversation, even though he's done somethings in the league that is very comparable to Kobe. Ball-hoggish, but more than capable of hitting big shots and getting past guys. I even have to say I really do not think Kobe had Barry's blazing speed in the open court or was the attacker RB was. Barry really did not become a shooter until a few years into his career. I have to say that they are pretty similar players in most regards, except Kobe is little more prominent because he has been with a great team for most of his career, while Barry never really played on any great squads. Dominique Wilkins, very controversial choice, but I sincerely believe if you put the guy from 84-92 with Shaq (in his prime) with Lakers (97-04), that he could have as many or near as many rings as Kobe. I believe if they played in the same time period, Wilkins would be alot closer to Kobe than he was to Jordan. This is the main reason, I avoid crowning the best players of all time, because who really knows . . . while the certain players are being crowned as such aren't necessarily better than players who are mentioned further down list.
What were the Bulls record with/without Jordan compared to Kobe with the Lakers? I'm pretty sure when MJ was out, they were an average team, but when he returned they won another 3 championships. LOL. Kobe on the other hand had many sub-par seasons.
The Bulls went 57-25 and won the championship in 93 before Jordan left. The next year without Jordan they went 55-27 and lost in the eastern conference semifinals to the Knicks in 7 games without home court advantage. It took us 7 games with home court advantage to beat those same Knicks in the finals that year. You can come to whatever conclusion you want from that info.
Well, MJ never raped a white chick, and quarelled with his teammate, nor would he elbow someone like battier he would just give him a tongue lashing. so MJ by a mile.
This is true, yet the new rules don't allow them to be as physical, so what does that really matter? Additionally, the perimiter players are much bigger and stronger than the ones in the 80's, but not the 90's. The primary defender on Kobe in this most recent postseason run (pick any team they faced) is smaller than Byron Russell for example. Kobe has faced Ron Artest in what, one postseason? Both of whom are better defenders than say, anyone that held Kobe in the OKC, Utah, Pho or Celtice series. I guess my point is why pimp the ability of teams to zone when very few teams do it, or that Kobe can be doubled off the ball when he rarely is, or how big and athletic wing defenders are when we just saw Ray Allen and Tony Allen checking Kobe. You are mentioning possibilities as if they are definties. Your post mentioned Kobe being doubled before he sees the ball, but that rarely happens, right?
Just to add fire to the debate. MJ didn't win against the Pistons during the championship year of the badboys, so if the latter were playing zone, that might have been a factor. There are not just zone and man to man defenses. There is in between , what some call hybrid man to man -zone defenses. Basically, when zone is legal, you have more leeway to sag off the player you are guarding. There is what you call a man-zone defense . If teams were playing zone back in the day and not getting caught that points to coaching incompetence and inability to analyze video. Fact is zones were illegal. Basically when zone is legal you can guard "space' and sag off your defender while under the illegal defense scheme you have to be guarding someone and you are not allowed to guard "space". If you watch jordan's buzzer beaters especially the ones against russell it was mainly one on one coverage. An additional factor is that defenses are easier to read if you are the offensive player and playing under the mandated man to man system whereas defenses are more complex when players have more liberty to sag off their defenders. Just saying that defenses are really harder to read when man to man is not mandatory.
What series were you watching Kobe play in this postseason. Every primary defender he played against was either one inch away from his height, his height, or taller than him. Here are some height numbers since you don't realize how big players are these days. Byron Russell 6'7 Ray Allen 6'5 Grant Hill 6'8 Wesley Matthew 6'5, CJ Miles 6'6 Sefolosha 6'7 [/QUOTE]I guess my point is why pimp the ability of teams to zone when very few teams do it, or that Kobe can be doubled off the ball when he rarely is, or how big and athletic wing defenders are when we just saw Ray Allen and Tony Allen checking Kobe. You are mentioning possibilities as if they are definties. Your post mentioned Kobe being doubled before he sees the ball, but that rarely happens, right?[/QUOTE] Did you watch game 7 of the finals. Having one man on you with a guy sagging of his man that is ready to collapse the second you get the ball is basically an off the ball double team. No very rarely do teams actually have two men on Kobe off the ball, but as the poster above me mentions, people can sag off their man so much more with the new zone rules that it's basically a double team because the second you get the ball that other defender is right there. If you want to play a game of semantics then no Kobe doesn't actually get doubled before he gets the ball that often but having a guy so close ends with the same result.
I guess my point is why pimp the ability of teams to zone when very few teams do it, or that Kobe can be doubled off the ball when he rarely is, or how big and athletic wing defenders are when we just saw Ray Allen and Tony Allen checking Kobe. You are mentioning possibilities as if they are definties. Your post mentioned Kobe being doubled before he sees the ball, but that rarely happens, right?[/QUOTE] Did you watch game 7 of the finals. Having one man on you with a guy sagging of his man that is ready to collapse the second you get the ball is basically an off the ball double team. No very rarely do teams actually have two men on Kobe off the ball, but as the poster above me mentions, people can sag off their man so much more with the new zone rules that it's basically a double team because the second you get the ball that other defender is right there. If you want to play a game of semantics then no Kobe doesn't actually get doubled before he gets the ball that often but having a guy so close ends with the same result.[/QUOTE] I agree. And this is also why I disagree with the statement that it was much more physical back then. Mainly because of this off the ball double team you are describing , players like ray allen have more liberty to be physical with the perimeter player knowing that if he gets beat another player is ready to collapse. If you watched this year's finals thats what they did , one man sticks to you like glue on the perimeter while the others are sagging off ready to take the charge or go for the block. Mark jackson and the commentators pointed this out sometimes you would see at least three people on kobe. Because of this liberty to sag off the player you are guarding you see much more SWARMING defenses so it is much more difficult for a single player to dominate the game. Also something you rarely saw in the past and a scene you see much often under todays zone rules, when a player is dribbling in the post with his back to the basket rarely would you see another player swipe the ball away by going for the steal , now more often than not like this year's finals when you see a post player dribbling with his back to the basket he has to make a quicker move because the PG like fisher will try to steal the ball as he is sagging off his man.
MJ didn't do it by himself. The later 3 championships, I credit Dennis Rodman for about 40% of their success. 1- best rebounder in the league 2- doesn't care about scoring Adding Ron Harper and a strong defender, and finally moving Kukoc away from the PF (which he's not a real PF), that worked really well Longley was the weak link in the lineup, but Harper, Pippen, Jordan, and Rodman is strong Having Kerr off the bench is good also since he's a better shooter in game situations than Hodges (from the 1st championship run) Hodges was just a 3 point contest shooter. Kerr was better in real games. Jordan > Kobe but Kobe can draw the comparisons because he's achieved so much
He led the team in Win Shares and PER in the season and led the entire playoffs in Win Shares. The Gasol vs Kobe is like the Nash vs Amare in 2005. Amare outproduced Nash, but Nash was the team's better player. Same thing with Gasol and Kobe. Difference here is this doesn't help Kobe's case when dealing with MJ, simply because whenever MJ won and whenever he was on the Bulls he led the team in PER and Win Shares in both the season and playoffs. PLAYOFFS 1. Michael Jordan* 28.59 2. George Mikan* 28.51 3. LeBron James 27.08 4. Shaquille O'Neal 26.16 5. Tim Duncan 25.74 6. Hakeem Olajuwon* 25.69 7. Tracy McGrady 24.66 8. Dirk Nowitzki 24.66 9. Charles Barkley* 24.18 10. Dwyane Wade 24.04 REGULAR SEASON http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_career.html 1. Michael Jordan* 27.91 2. LeBron James 26.86 3. Shaquille O'Neal 26.59 4. David Robinson* 26.18 5. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.13 6. Dwyane Wade 25.67 7. Bob Pettit* 25.37 8. Tim Duncan 25.02 9. Neil Johnston* 24.72 10. Charles Barkley* 24.63 11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58 12. Magic Johnson* 24.11 MJ led in Playoff Win Shares 7x and Russell 5x. The most for any player http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_career_p.html 1. Michael Jordan* 39.76 2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 35.56 3. Magic Johnson* 32.63 4. Wilt Chamberlain* 31.46 5. Shaquille O'Neal 31.08 6. Tim Duncan 28.61 7. Bill Russell* 27.76 8. Julius Erving* 26.89 9. Jerry West* 26.75 10. Kobe Bryant 26.12 MJ led in Season Win Shares 9x and Wilt and Kareem as well led in it 9x. The most for any player MJ led in Playoff Offensive Win Shares 7x and Jerry West 6x and Magic 4x. The most for any player MJ led in Offensive Win Shares 8x and Kareem 6x and Neil Johnson 5x and Wilt 4x. The most for any player Kareem led in Playoff PER 7x and MJ 6x (also led in it in 1986 with a 30 PER, so really 7x) and Wilt 6x. The most for any player Kareem led in WS Per 48 Minutes 9x and MJ 8x and Wilt 8x, the most for any player 1. Michael Jordan* 0.2505 2. David Robinson* 0.2502 3. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.2480 4. Neil Johnston* 0.2413 5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 0.2284 6. Magic Johnson* 0.2249 7. LeBron James 0.2242 8. Tim Duncan 0.2190 9. Manu Ginobili 0.2167 10. Charles Barkley* 0.2163 MJ and Kareem both led in WS per 48 Minutes in the playoffs 5x, the most for any Player. http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html 1. Michael Jordan* 0.2553 2. George Mikan* 0.2541 3. LeBron James 0.2287 4. Magic Johnson* 0.2078 5. Dirk Nowitzki 0.2059 6. Tim Duncan 0.2037 7. Jerry West* 0.2031 8. Wilt Chamberlain* 0.1998 9. David Robinson* 0.1992 It's hard to compare Kobe to MJ, simply because not only does MJ have better numbers, but he has more accolades and is one of the top 4 most productive players ever. Not to mention he won all his titles as the best player in the nba with hardly any debate about it.
Did you read what I posted (not asking in a condescending way)? I said Kobe hasn't faced a defender this postseason bigger than Russell. In the 97 & 98 Finals the primary defender on MJ was Russell, who was 6'7, 225. The secondary defender was Shandon Anderson, who was 6'6, 208. I updated your post with the weights of the primary defenders on Kobe. Now I stand corrected, as Hill is one inch taller. However, the rest of the players are smaller. And I still wouldn't take this years old version of Grant Hill over Russell defensively. None of those players are better defenders than Byron Russell. Folks argue that wings today are so much bigger and stronger, yet the majority of them are shoddy defenders. CJ Miles is a perfect example of this. So was Gerald Green. Arguing that Jordan faced smaller guys in the 80's holds weight. It absolutely does not for the 90's, when he won all of his titles. Russell, Anderson, Miller, Rose, Drexler, Kersey, Rodman (who did cover him at times in Detroit), Majerle, Willie Anderson, Dumas, Ceballas....none of those players are any smaller then the dudes Kobe just faced in this postseason run. All of those guys aren't elite defenders, but neither are these bigger wings that Kobe is seeing. This years playoff run is a perfect example of that. If that's your argument then MJ saw that all the time as well, and I believe another poster has provided footage in this thread highlighting that. Yes, but there are other rules that offset this, such as not being able to touch the defender or not have a big camped in the paint waiting for you to attack. Which change is more significant. Just like Kobe is still handchecked at times, trust me that teams still ran the same types of zones you ae describing back then. They would run them and live with their 1-2 illegial defense calls per game. Any Rocket fan that saw us play against Seattle in the playoffs in the 90's should know this fact quite well.
You keep bringing up Byron Russell as if this is the guy that was holding Jordan for most the 90s. He faced him twice near the end of his career in the finals. I will agree that more players like him and Kobe we coming into the league at that point in time but that was real late in MJs career when he was already at his prime. Most of the players you name besides Russell are people that Jordan rarely faced in his first championship run. He was mostly facing Ehlo, Dumars, and Starks during the first run and ran into Drexler and Majerle in the finals. Everybody Kobe plays against is 6'5-6'8 not just some players. I don't even need to make a list of the 6'6 guards in the league like you did because we all know that most are. The reason I didn't include weight is because you keep saying they can't touch players so it seemed like length and quickness is more important so i went with height. Both Sefolosha and Allen are really good defenders and despite his age Hill is still a pretty good defender which makes 3 out of 4. That poster included some pictures of a type of zone that teams played when they were illegal. it is nothing compared to what teams can get away with today. Go watch the video I posted if you want to see what i mean. You don't need to touch a player when you can immediately double him. It forces them into either getting rid of the ball or taking a tough. Also as another poster mentioned they are allowed to crowd players a lot more because they know they have instant help. I'm not really sure why you are so determined to prove that doubles and height don't make a difference because it should be obvious that they do. How much of a difference is up for debate but so is hand checking and tougher play. What you should be taking away from all of this is that both Jordan and Kobe dealt with defensive schemes that affected their game. Which one worked better can be debated all day. My opinion will continue to be that both strategies have their pluses and minuses and either player in either era would adapt and dominate.
You're really underestimating the impact of the handcheck. It allowed the defender to legally and forcibly slow down his opponent. For a defender, hand-checking is far more effective than immediately double-teaming a player.
You keep bringing up Byron Russell as if this is the guy that was holding Jordan for most the 90s. He faced him twice near the end of his career in the finals. I will agree that more players like him and Kobe we coming into the league at that point in time but that was real late in MJs career when he was already at his prime. Most of the players you name besides Russell are people that Jordan rarely faced in his first championship run. He was mostly facing Ehlo, Dumars, and Starks during the first run and ran into Drexler and Majerle in the finals. Everybody Kobe plays against is 6'5-6'8 not just some players. I don't even need to make a list of the 6'6 guards in the league like you did because we all know that most are. The reason I didn't include weight is because you keep saying they can't touch players so it seemed like length and quickness is more important so i went with height. Both Sefolosha and Allen are really good defenders and despite his age Hill is still a pretty good defender which makes 3 out of 4. That poster included some pictures of a type of zone that teams played when they were illegal. it is nothing compared to what teams can get away with today. Go watch the video I posted if you want to see what i mean. You don't need to touch a player when you can immediately double him. It forces them into either getting rid of the ball or taking a tough. Also as another poster mentioned they are allowed to crowd players a lot more because they know they have instant help. I'm not really sure why you are so determined to prove that doubles and height don't make a difference because it should be obvious that they do. How much of a difference is up for debate but so is hand checking and tougher play. What you should be taking away from all of this is that both Jordan and Kobe dealt with defensive schemes that affected their game. Which one worked better can be debated all day. My opinion will continue to be that both strategies have their pluses and minuses and either player in either era would adapt and dominate.
For one defender yes, for two defenders no. You don't need to hand check as much if you have help. Would it help sure, but it is not necessary when you can double quicker. Also keep in mind that for a lot of Jordan's era he was bigger and stronger than the people he played against. They needed hand checking to guard him back then if they couldn't zone him. Jordan in a zone free no hand checking era against smaller defenders would be ridiculous but the same can be said for Kobe.
gmoney411 You need to do some fact checking. In MJs first title run, he saw Trent Tucker and Gerald Henderson in round 1, Ron Anderson some in round 2 (the primary defender was Hawkins, who is 1 inch shorter than Ray Allen), and Dumars and Rodman in round 3. Aside from Joe D, who is arguably the best defender regardless, those other guys are as big as the wings Kobe saw this postseason. The next year he faced Steve Smith and Keith Askins (round 1), Gerald Wilkins (round 2), Ehlo (round 3) and Drexler/Kersey in the Finals (arguably his best Finals series). All of those guys are just as big as the guys Kobe faced this postseason. Drexler alone was a better defender and a bigger, more athletic wing than anyone Kobe faced this postseason. Can we please end this myth that MJ wasn't killing big wing defenders? The dude played in the 80s and 90s. Additionally, please tell me what defender Kobe saw this postseason that was better defensively than Joe Dumars? You are truly overrating size. A gugvcan be big and suck defensively. CJ Miles is not a good defender, for example.
Handcheck rule doesn't apply for Kobe. You don't have to believe it. Just point out how many times handcheck had been called for Kobe in finals. And don't tell me RA didn't use it on him. I can easily find 20 instances in any one game. I saw it called only once in game 1, when the game was already out of reach towards the end of 3r quarter. And I shouted, wow, I've never saw Kobe got a handcheck call in the last 3 years' playoff. As of double off the ball, there're many instances of double Kobe off ball if he got position down low. The double can come off big man, or the guy defending the entry passer can back off as much as needed to deny the entry pass. If your post entry passer is not a sharp 3pt shooter with quick release, there's no entry pass to make. Go check MJ's 2nd 3peat, he used lots of ISO in post position to get his shots off. Below FT line, you have to be within one arm of offensive player, so you can't really play any soft double, position to double when the player picks up the ball. You either have to do immediate double, or you have to let MJ ISO. And in the first case, think of a simple pass out and pass back, you were not going to run fast than the ball, and the help defender couldn't stay with MJ when he didn't have the ball. There's a reason you couldn't avoid MJ ISO down low at that time. He'd at least have a second or two to operate before the double team could come no matter how you defend.
