I can't say anyone is more competitive than Jordan, but Kobe is a competitive freak in his own right. I don't think I'd give either an edge in that area. Edge: None I would say, in terms of competitiveness, its a wash. They are comparable 1-on-1 defenders. Passing ability is about the same. Edge: Jordan Jordan was better midrange and in short distance. Jordan was more explosive off the dribble. Jordan gets the edge in stamina. I'd give Jordan an edge in terms of disruptiveness on defense (weakside shot-blocking, steals). Edge: Kobe Kobe is the deadlier long range shooter. Kobe might be a bit better as a ball-handler.
Don't forget Kobe has 1 MVP and Jordan has 5. Oh and Jordan has 6 finals MVP to Kobe's 2. And Jordan has a DPOtY while Kobe has none. And Jordan's 10 scoring title's trump Kobe's 2.
Jordan was an assassin, pure and simple. He simply refused to lose. Here's a perfect example. ESPN's John Hollinger's list of the 50 Greatest Single game performances in NBA Finals history: 1. Michael Jordan, Bulls: 1997 Finals, Game 5 2. Magic Johnson, Lakers: 1980 Finals, Game 6 3. James Worthy, Lakers: 1988 Finals, Game 7 4. Michael Jordan, Bulls: 1998 Finals, Game 6 5. Karl Malone, Jazz: 1998 Finals, Game 5 6. Tim Duncan, Spurs: 2003 Finals, Game 1 7. Isiah Thomas, Pistons: 1988 Finals, Game 6 8. Michael Jordan, Bulls: 1991 Finals, Game 2 9. Dwyane Wade, Heat: 2006 Finals, Game 3 10. Michael Jordan, Bulls: 1992 Finals, Game 1 11. Michael Jordan, Bulls: 1993 Finals, Game 4 12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Lakers: 1980 Finals, Game 5 13. Kobe Bryant, Lakers: 2009 Finals, Game 1 14. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers: 2000 Finals, Game 1 15. Michael Jordan, Bulls: 1992 Finals, Game 5 16. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers: 2002 Finals, Game 2 17. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers: 2001 Finals, Game 2 18. Michael Jordan, Bulls: 1997 Finals, Game 2 19. Dwyane Wade, Heat: 2006 Finals, Game 6 20. Hakeem Olajuwon, Rockets: 1994 Finals, Game 6 21. Manu Ginobili, Spurs: 2005 Finals, Game 2 22. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers: 2000 Finals, Game 6 23. Larry Bird, Celtics: 1986 Finals, Game 6 24. Bill Walton, Trail Blazers: 1977 Finals, Game 6 25. Cedric Maxwell, Celtics: 1984 Finals, Game 7 26. Allen Iverson, 76ers: 2001 Finals, Game 1 27. Michael Jordan, Bulls: 1991 Finals, Game 4 28. Adrian Dantley, Pistons: 1988 Finals, Game 1 29. Magic Johnson, Lakers: 1988 Finals, Game 6 30. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers: 2002 Finals, Game 3 31. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Lakers: 1985 Finals, Game 6 32. Tim Duncan, Spurs: 1999 Finals, Game 1 33. Ben Wallace, Pistons: 2004 Finals, Game 5 34. Karl Malone, Jazz: 1997 Finals, Game 3 35. Tim Duncan, Spurs: 2003 Finals, Game 5 36. Magic Johnson, Lakers: Game 1, 1988 Finals 37. Michael Jordan, Bulls: 1991 Finals, Game 1 38. Magic Johnson, Lakers: 1987 Finals, Game 2 39. Magic Johnson, Lakers: 1987 Finals, Game 3 40. Moses Malone, 76ers: 1983 Finals, Game 3 41. Scottie Pippen, Bulls: 1992 Finals, Game 1 42. Michael Jordan, Bulls: 1993 Finals, Game 2 43. Kevin Garnett: 2008 Finals, Game 6 44. Michael Jordan, Bulls: 1996 Finals, Game 3 45. Tim Duncan, Spurs: 2007 Finals, Game 1 46. Shawn Kemp, Sonics: 1996 Finals, Game 4 47. Larry Bird, Celtics: 1986 Finals, Game 2 48. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Lakers: 1980 Finals, Game 1 49. Kobe Bryant, Lakers: 2009 Finals, Game 5 50. Shaquille O'Neal, Lakers: 2004 Finals, Game 4 5 of the top 11? 11 of the top 50? That's pretty dominant. Truthfully the only one cloes is Magic. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playo...llinger_john&page=BestFinalsGame-Individual-1
Zone just allows much quicker double team. You don't have to be blind to see that. Dream had trouble played against zone against Seattle. It's much more effective when it's legal. Hand-check rule is reserved for the likes of Wade and LeBron. I don't see it called in finals last few years or Kobe would average 20 FT at least every game. Let's not pretend RA didn't put a hand or two on Kobe every time he tried to drive.
do you even understand what you're saying? the pistons are clearly running a zone and no matter if jordan goes to his left or right, the double team is coming from either side. jordan pulls up left and the double comes because the pistons are so afraid of jordan scoring in the paint they block him off from driving to the left and even has a big man waiting for him in the paint if he breaks through the first line of defense. so instead of trying to force his way through the double jordan just pulls up for a jumper. jordan saw zones when he played. teams just ran zone when jordan had the ball and switched back to man when it was in other players hands. teams disguised with spacing it because the nba regulated zone that adjusted to movement with the ball yet teams adjusted to when the ball was in jordans hands so you're first paragraph can be applied to jordan as well. the current zones now affect team play more than individual play but jordan and kobe both saw zones, so the myth that jordan never saw zones is just that...a myth, which is what i was responding to anyway. even then all this zone talk is null and void now because phil's triangle offense with it's spacing and ball movement perfectly offsets most zones anyways. and of course the refs let the celtics get away with a little hand checking (i even mentioned it in the game thread) but also called it on RA and TA as well (fisher got away with handchecking on RA and called it as well but i just didnt pay anymind). and its funny how you say zone is more effective when legal when hand-checking is more effective when legal as well. so imagine if refs really let hand checking allowed? like the late 80's or early 90s? so essence you just contradicted yourself.
It's not that Jordan didn't face double teams its the fact that he didn't face them nearly as much when he was off the ball. With the new zone defense rules teams can practically double Kobe before he gets the ball. Doubles coming after you get the ball is a whole different story. In the pictures you post Jordan is being single covered with help coming from the side. When he gets to the ft line and pulls up that second defender is in no way affecting his shot. Kobe would knock that shot down all day long.
as i've said. the pistons strategy was to keep jordan out of the paint by all means necessary (jordan was killing teams by driving in the paint and finishing or getting to the line). the second defender comes to strip the ball or block jordan if he drives to his left but jordan pulls up for a jumper. the pistons would take a jumper than a drive from jordan. which is what the celtics this year would rather kobe take. and the games where kobe shot a ton of jumpers instead of drive where his worst games imo (except the 3rd quarter in game 5 where hit was hitting some incredible jumpers.) but moving on they couldn't double jordan of the ball if they wanted to becuase he was so great at moving without the ball (imo better than kobe) and the bulls did a great job of setting screens of the ball like what the celtics do with ray allen. even then jordan still faced doubled teams off the ball when he tried to post. i've always said when i see kobe fighting for position in the post, i dont understand why more teams dont just play off the defender and put pressure on kobe instead of just let kobe westle for position while the lakers just hand him the ball, becuase that's what he pistons did. as you see here the pistons are pretty much doubling jordan in the post while just disrespecting pippen. i've seen kobe see some of this before but not often. i think this method would be pretty effective but then again i dont remember kobe posting up has much during the finals.
The Celtics were not defending Kobe in a way that would allow him to take the kind of jump shots the Pistons were give Jordan. The Celtics especially in game 7, were trying to force Kobe into taking bad long jumps shots not free throw line jump shots. And since you haven't really seen Kobe get doubled team that much in the post here is a video of how teams double him. The guy making this is pretty Kobe bias but he does give a few good examples. And don't get me wrong, i am not saying that Kobe is the better player I'm must saying that he faces just as many road blocks defensively as Jordan did. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4kYBeNQdSCc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4kYBeNQdSCc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
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I'm not really sure what that video is meant to prove. If you posted it to show that Kobe sometimes settles for jump shots too often and should attack the basket more i agree. I only watched the first half of the video because the game was over at that point. You should post a video of game 7 if you are trying to talk about how the celtics played kobe instead of posting a video from two years ago in a blowout lose. Kobe still doesn't know when and when not to take shots sometimes and often forces the issue and that is one of the reasons he isn't as good as Jordan. However, I don't see how that video is a reply to me saying that the Celtics weren't fine with giving Kobe long difficult jump shots because in that video that's pretty much all he is taking.
you said "In the pictures you post Jordan is being single covered with help coming from the side. When he gets to the ft line and pulls up that second defender is in no way affecting his shot. Kobe would knock that shot down all day long." in that video above it's pretty much kinda what the pistons ran on jordan except with lighter hand checking and no defensive 3 seconds, and kobe struggled. to say that "Kobe would knock that shot down all day long" is not true imo becuase kobe shws poor judment on when and when not to penetrate (which i showed evidence of) . at least we both agree on Kobe sometimes settles for jump shots too often and the point i was trying to make was that if kobe seen that type of defense he would make poor decisions. i think the evidence me and you both show is just how defenses manipulate jordan and kobe's strength and weaknesses. the pistons said we'll take jumpers from you all day but jordan still attacked every chance he took but also threw them off with jumpers to keep them off-balance while the celtics said we'll take jumpers from you all day, and kobe played right into their hands and settled for bad shots instead of still attacking. which all goes back to he debate of kobe would do well playing that type of defense which i think was the point you where trying to make in response to my pictures.
I'd have to see the video of that Pistons game to agree with you on them playing Jordan the same. A lot of the times the Celtics are running that second guy at Kobe before he can get to the free throw line, while in that Jordan picture it seemed like they were allowing him to get there and staying back to prevent penetration. Plus most of the situations we see Kobe in aren't the 3-2 zone setup. My main point in this entire discussion is that you can't just say that Jordan was better bc of so and so rule because teams find ways to defend players regardless. Jordan had things that made life difficult for him and Kobe has the same. IMO Jordan is the better player because he was the smarter and made the right decision more than Kobe. If you put Jordan in today's game with no hand checking and zone defenses I have no doubt that he could have still dominated but I don't feel like he would be scoring 40 plus a night because nobody could hand check him. I also feel if you put Kobe back in the Jordan days with hand checking he would still dominate too.
I hate Kobe but old people talk it personal when U say he's better than MJ Ur insalting there generation .. MJ is better than Kobe but the magin is slimer than what people would like to admit .. And whether u like or not he was the one that roasted us and the magic last year ..
Dude, Kobe is rarely doubled before he get's the ball, especially not when Fisher and Gasol are on the floor, or the other 7 footer to lob the ball to. What games have you been watching? But you are correct that he can be doubled before touching the ball, although this rarely happens. Does that rule offset the fact that you can't touch him as much on the perimiter, or that a defender (typically a big man) can't just camp in the paint and wait for him to drive, or the fact that the big men today are worse than the ones in MJ's era, or the fact that those bigs could pummell you if you did drive and not get kicked out of the game? The game today is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY less physical then it was when MJ played. Don't try to sell me on how much tougher Kobe has it because he can legally be zoned, when teams rarely do it. The things I mentioned were things that MJ faced on a nightly basis.
im not saying that jordan is better because of "such and such rule". my original post was just to clear up that jordan didn't face zones or double teams. im not one of those haters that will say if you put kobe in jordans era he would average 20 ppg shooting 28% but if you put kobe in jordans era imo i think he would be at about 26-28 ppg shooting around 44-46% which imo is reasonable.
We could play this game all night. I could easily throw in that while big men aren't as dominant as they were back in the day, perimeter players have gotten much bigger and stronger. There were no Ron Artest like players for most of Jordan's career. His biggest battles were against John Stark and Joe Dumars. While both players are fierce competitors there is only so much a 6'3 player can due against a 6'6 player that is a superior athlete. Like I've been saying both players have their roadblocks and both would succeed in the others era probably without much of a fall off. Kobe is a great player and Jordan is a greater player.
And i forgot to add that at no point in time did i say that Kobe had it harder than MJ so don't try and read something into my posts that isn't there. So once again BOTH players faced roadblocks defensively. And in case you are wondering both means Kobe and Jordan and there is no emphasis on who had it tougher.
