Actually, a starting pitcher only gets credit for a win/loss if they pitch 5 innings. Less, and it's an automatic no-decision. Not true. You cannot qualify for a win as a starting pitcher if you go less than 5 innings. However, you can qualify for a loss. ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
Same reason Cato is still a major leaguer...... ------------------ My doctor says I am bipolar. I am going to get a second opinion. I have never had intimate desires for polar bears.
Come on RMT, do you really believe what you said about "ridiculous contract"? Lima had 1 good year and followed by a great year to warrant such a contract. Had he continue to produce at his first year's #s, we would've been calling McLane a genius right now. **** happens, this is one of them. I can agree that we jumped the gun on Cato, but Lima actually had a track record (albeit it was only 2 years, but that is 1 more year more than some of the other 1-year wonders out there) to warrant that contract. If memories serve me right (it may not, because of old age), there were other teams that could've offered more money than the 'stros, but he chose to stay here. I am not insinuating that we should just keep trotting Lima out there, I just don't like to see the blame being placed on areas that are not justified. ------------------ Congratulations Bill!!!! Willoughby gets college degree Willoughby graduation video (At the bottom of page)
Moonbus: I disagree. Lima's "good and great" years involved a GREAT deal of luck. In fact, he was no more than an average pitcher during those years. Look at Lima's ERA away from the Dome - it was never better than average. He was lucky - he was a flyball pitcher in a park that was great for that. AND, he had amazing run support. There was a reason Houston came close to having 3 20 game winners that year... namely, Bagwell and Biggio and company kicked butt. In any other park, with an average offense, Lima might have been 13-10. Decent, admittedly, but not enough to merit a large contract from a team with financial problems. The Astros KNEW Enron would be a homerun park. The Lima deal was a mistake from the beginning. ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001 [This message has been edited by haven (edited May 24, 2001).]
Yes, I would call it a ridiculous contract. Lima had one great year. His home park was the Astrodome, where many a home run went to die. Those same home runs aren't dying in Enron Field. Lima, to his credit, exercised his leverage and got Drayton to pay him way more than he is worth, IMHO. Now that Lima's great year is distant history, do you think we are paying him what he is worth? I think we are paying him way too much. Do you see any major league team taking Lima and his fat contract in a trade? I don't. In my opinion, we are stuck with Lima because Drayton is paying him much more than he is now worth on the open market. In my opinion, the contract Lima signed was and is ridiculous. Not for Lima, but for the Astros. ------------------ "Blues is a Healer" --John Lee Hooker
haven & RMT, My point is ... where were the screams at the time Lima signed the contract? Sorry, I just don't recall them on this board, on the radio, or on TV. If there were, it was maybe 4 or 5 people. Unlike now, where everybody says the same thing like they had this foresight. I can unstand people calling out Cato now, because at the time when he signed the contract, a large majority of the people were screaming "NO!!!". But that is not the case with Lima. If my memory serve me right, at the time of the signing, no one stood up and scream "STOP!!!". So what you guys are saying IMHO is really hindsight. Even after 10Run was built, no one say "uh-oh, Lima is going to have a problem", until a couple of games into the season. That's why I say it's not fair to put blame on the contract itself or the Astros. Yeah, the contract sucks NOW, but what's the point of saying "Gee that contract sucked!" when it's after the fact? We are not only saying that the Astros were stupid, we are also admitting that we were stupid to not say anything at the time of the signing. Is that the point you were trying to make, that we were all stupid? If yes, then that's ok, I accept that. But if the point was just to say the Astros were stupid and you would've made a better decision is IMO not fair. To me, this is the same thing with people complaining about the Rockets paying Dream too much for the past 3 season. Yes, he didn't worth those $ for the result he produced, but no one complained at the time of the signing? So, why complain now? I have no problem with people saying Lima suck (which he does right now). I have no problem with people saying "I wished we hadn't given him that contract." What I find unreasonable is calling out the Astros after the fact. I apology if "in fact" that's what you guys were thinking at the time of signing, but I just didn't find any evidence to support the over-whelming of the "I knew it!" that appears on the net, radio, and TV. NOTE: I'm not calling you guys liars. I just felt that a great majority of the people thought that the contract was OK at the time (Yes, I was one of those suckers because I didn't follow the games as close as I once did. Heck, even if I did, I probably wouldn't have notice those details. Ok, I just admitted that I am an amateur baseball fan, happy? ), but now everyone seem to be saying that they work for Dionne Warwick (sp?)
Moonbus: I did complain at the time. I was just a poster in the main forum though at the time, where the Astros are not discussed. I wasn't horrified though, I admit. My reaction was along the lines of: Lima's not worth that much... oh well, no big deal. I thought it was moderately bad. I know a few other people who thought it was a bad deal, and I can't recollect *anyone* tihnking it was a good deal. The thing is, people don't scream about the resigning of 20 game winners, no matter how lucky they were. But the organization still should have known better. It wasn't like this downfall couldn't have been anticipated, especially since even casual fans had some misgivings. ------------------ A few years back on the Senate floor... Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe." Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!" Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
I stand corrected -- and learned something new today. Thank you. I think we can both agree that he still has some work to do. ------------------ Stay Cool...
Actually, a starting pitcher only gets credit for a win/loss if they pitch 5 innings. Less, and it's an automatic no-decision. That's why you might notice that Dierker, who pulls for his pitchers, tries very hard to let them pitch through the 5th. With Dierker (who used to be a pitcher) you have to mess up badly to be pulled earlier. The fact that Lima has had 9 starts, and has only received 3 decisions speaks volumes for his performance -- the rest of the time he didn't even pitch long enough to get credit. RunninRavin -- I'm glad someone else thought of McKnight! He did a decent job last year, and would be a step up from Lima. The only problem is, you'd have to send someone else down to bring him up, and it can't be Lima. I'd like to see Oswalt have a shot also, but I think he's going to be a better pitcher in the long term (another Miller?) and I'd rather they not rush him for the sake of Lima. The KTRH guys were talking about the pitcher vs. batters park thing in reference to Lima. Last year, they started the season putting part of the blame on Enron field, but later stopped. The problem is, he's stunk just as badly on the road. No team is going to take him at his salary. Da ------------------ Stay Cool...
Absolutely. In fact, you can look at the run support for the starting pitchers, and tell that the team isn't trying as hard for Lima. (Runs / 9 innings pitched): Elerton 6.8 Dotel 6.8 Miller 6.5 Reynolds 6.5 Lima 4.8 Bottenfield 3.4 (I'm not sure what the deal is with Bottenfield. I'm guessing it has something to do with his fewer starts). ------------------ Stay Cool...
Jose Lima=Matt Maloney=Kelvin Cato Three horrible moves lol. Which was the worst signing? ------------------ Shane "Save Our Rockets" "Life without basketball in Houston........without an arena that is what it will be"
The thing is, people don't scream about the resigning of 20 game winners, no matter how lucky they were. But the organization still should have known better. One problem with this is that we hadn't resigned Lima (who could have gotten more elsewhere), people would have been b****ing about how we let all our good pitchers go, etc, etc. Combined with losing Hampton and Everett, all hell would have broken loose. I don't think the Astros had much choice but to sign Lima. He became extremely popular in his 2 good years. Similarly, I don't think we should have resigned Bagwell for $15M per if it was purely a business decision. We could have replaced him with Ward at $200K or something with only a small loss of offense, and spent $15M on 2 starting pitchers. However, it wasn't just a business decision, and I think the same applied with Lima (not nearly to the same extent of course). ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
