So... as a relative percentage of the population do immigrants comprise a greater, smaller, or relatively equal total fraction of the population?
I think we were discussing the current situation. From my perspective, this phase of the discussion began when MadMax responded to Donkey Magic, who said: I would agree with Max's (implied) assertation that the effect of outside populations on the United States is within the range of what it has been throughout the history of this country.
coming into this country legally in the 1800's meant something very different than what it means today. think there was an INS keeping up with your status? think you got off the boat in Philly and were earning a green card?
your just described our history. trust me, it wasn't royalty and the aristocrats braving an ocean journey with rats and disease to come settle here.
the difference is that the people in gangs of new york were coming to america to stay permantently. to assimilate and start a new life here. my grandpa grew up in a little town in eastern iowa where everyone spoke german, but they still considered themselves americans and werent planning to go back to germany. what we have now are migrant workers who come here strictly to work for a little while, send money home and then go back. ties are not established, people dont try to assimilate or be a part of this country.
They also weren't stepping off the boat and getting free health care, free breakfasts at school, and myriad other federal benefits. We also weren't a nation of 270,000,000 people then. Every land mass has a carrying capacity of people it can support. Even our land mass.
and i dont think it is a coincidence that since bush has been in office illegal immigrants in this country has gone from 7 million in 2000 to the 12-30 million we now have.
Interesting Debate: You want to know how to solve the crisis and make everyone happy? Tax Illegal Immigrants using the AMT system (with no exemption amount). Give special status as class B workers (not to be confused with 2nd hand citizens considering they're 2 steps removed from being a citizen). B workers pay a flat tax of 26% all wages (No FICA since they won't collect SS anyways). Deductions only for charity, mortgage interest (like AMT). No personal exemptions for children or themselves. Companies employing these immigrants must pay a 10% surcharge to encourage hiring US workers while still being able to hire Class B workers if it is economically viable even with the surcharge tax. That 26% will deliver billions to the US treasury. It will give the lowest paying workers less incentive to come here. It will defeat the wage suppression argument. Higher skilled workers could still make a decent living and more than what Mexico provides. More money is spent (or taxed) in the US and less being mailed back to Mexico. No citizenship status unless they work here for 20 years.
That still doesn't answer the question of document forging. Currently US companies are required to check immigration status as is, so most illegals just use fake documents. Companies have no incentive to truly verify since your system is built to encourage legal workers, so they'll claim that they unknowingly hired illegals and thought they were legal, deflecting any legal blame. These companies already do that now, so there's no way to actually stop it in my opinion. It's the the reason why I think most proposals that institute immigration verification just won't work.
Simple economics. Make the fine very high for wilful neglect including potential jail time for company owners.
I'm not sure that can be proven. In fact, I'm positive it can't. There have been cases brought up now against companies and they used the ignorance defense and won.
we're nowhere near that. we're literally approaching employee shortages at this point. we have 3.9% unemployment with how many illegal immigrants here working still???
i have no idea...but i don't believe we're anywhere close to that. i don't believe these folks are nearly the drain on poor America as the rest of you.
this is a neat conservative myth. there were Germans here in Texas and around the States who refused to stop speaking German until they were persecuted during WWI. the idea that these people became culturally assimilated is a joke. they didn't assimilate until they were pressured. i'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. but immigrants assimilate tons quicker now. within a generation they're speaking the language and identify as Americans, for the most part. in the past they would go generations before even bothering to learn English. but we have this notion that they got off the boat, learned English immediately and pledged allegiance.
