I understand your argument, but it doesn't fly right now in today's economy. We have a labor shortage right now all across the South (and I think West). Wages are high, and many, many companies cannot find enough workers, skilled or unskilled.
Well, so it's ok for them to live here 6 months out of the year? Don't you have to provide social services for the time that they are here? What happens to the housing when they are not here? The school, the hospital and those who are affected by them? Do you close down those places 6 months out of the year? Not to mention the fact that you are exploiting those people if you think that is all that they can and should do. You can't assume and limit the immigrants to the menial, laborous jobs that most of us over here don't want to do. That is racist and discrimatory. If you have open border, you can not prevent the immigrant doctors, technicians, engineers to come here and work either. Don't you know there are many people from all parts of the world who want to come here for high paid jobs as well?
Don't you worry about that Sishir, if you open the border, the people from Indonnesia will fly to Mexico and then walk across. Heck, if they have to get on a boat to get here, they will too. Didn't you hear about the boat people from Vietnam? They tried, failed and tried again many times over, under adversed and life threatening conditions to get on those dinghies to a neighboring country, their dreamed destination: the US. If their boats didn't sink at sea or attacked and killed by pirates, they had to stay in refuge camps for years, some for 10+ and finally got deported back to Vietnam when no country wanted to take them in. I hardly think their situation was unique, it's the same all over the world. If you can't not make a living at home, you have to try something else.
Amen. It's hard, difficult, complicated, convoluted, etc. whatever word you want to use, therefore it is ok to live here and use our education system, healthcare systems be employed and not pay taxes on any of it? No thanks. I don't care about how many come to live here. I'm all about immigration. My fiance's grandparents themselves were immigrants. Let them all come! But come legally and pay your taxes.
Actually for doctors or nurses for that matter to be able to practice and work in the US they would have to pass the US board exams. A doctor from say, Sri Lanka can't just come here and start practicing medicine right away. Like I mentioned, they would have to pass the medical board, then take up residency, then set up a practice. My knowledge is however, only in the medical profession I don't know how it is in other high-skilled occupations if it is similar. As for other high-skilled positions, I would leave it up to a company to hire the most skilled person, be it from this country or another.
Why is immigration a problem.- It is a problem when it is illegal. 1. When you have two separate governments that are very different there are borders of separation. 2. Ideology, government, laws, cultures, business, resources, economies, vision, goals, military, religion, ethics, societies, education, history and many other areas of difference- are all significant to the separation of nations. 3. Each nation has different processes, ideologies and visions for addressing national goals and resolving problems. 4. The reason immigration is controlled is to protect the sovereign national ideology, governance, vision, goals, cultures, business, resources, laws, economies, ethics and future of a sovereign nation. Just read what pledges a legal immigrant makes to become a US citizen. 5. Without the control of immigration a sovereign nation will be vulnerable to the destruction of core values such as ethical, cultural and visionary values reflected in law, constitution, and civil rights. The culture and society is also vulnerable to destructive influence. This is not to say that an immigrant is bad, it is to say that immigration must be monitored and controlled to assure it is not bad for the nation. 6. An immigrant is not easily assimilated from one form of ethics, values, economy, governance, culture, and laws to a new form of same. For this reason unless there is a melting pot mentality where an immigrant is assimilated to the values, vision and goals of a soveriegn nation conflict will most likely result. 7. America is a melting pot and when an immigrant is processed legally and properly an immigrant can add value to this nation in unity with the culture, values and vision of our nation. 8. Jobs is never a reason for open borders because market supply and demand always resolves employment where there is not outside intervention. Jobs that are not filled will either go away or adapt to ensure employment. People will work, even Americans, hiring will happen even in low pay positions or there will be a market adjustment that is normal and safe for an economy. It is a myth to say that immigrants are needed to supply a workforce. A workforce is dependent on an economy not the other way around. When the economy has less jobs than there are people then there is a market force that increases the competition for jobs. When there are more jobs than there are people (as suggested with low income jobs) then the jobs themselves adjust to meet the supply. I have seen this happen in home building for over 30 yrs. When carpenter crews are short due to increased demand for homes then the better crews are paid a premium, the low paid helpers are paid more and eventually more crews are formed to meet the demand- increasing employment. When there is an abundance of carpenter crews due to low demand in housing a lack of workers is a mute point. 9. Illegal immigration leave this nation entirely vulnerable to the most destructive elements of being a melting pot and a refuse. It is neither right for the immigrant nor the citizens of this nation to expect such a process to happen without a valid and effective process of assimilation and allegiance in place. 10. Illegal immigration removes borders that protect. These borders are not designed to be a wall of hate, but a door of protection that can be monitored and controlled so that immigration adds value to the core values of the nation. The benefits of legal immigration shine brightly in the history of this nation. But the dangers of illegal immigration are being confused today with political parlay and manipulation for votes. It is sad that we cannot restore a proper immigration policy and protect our borders from a violation of a good process. We are no longer a melting pot for those who seek to embrace our history, values and goverance, but we are a now a stew pot that is losing the flavor of American values, and vision because we do not care about what is thrown into the pot. This is not the definition of a sovereign nation. The very fact that we don't know what our core values, ethics, constitution, civil liberties, market economy, goals and visions are illustrate why there is such confusion over illegal immigration. The real problem over illegal immigration is not in the immigrant or the citizens of this nation, we want to be a place of refuge. The real problem is that our politicians are lost and adrift, they have come to contend over what are our core national values. As long as we are divided at the top over the things that make America a sovereign nation we will be divided through until the foundation itself cracks.
come on, RR...unemployment is beyond low right now. it's at the point where it's almost nothing more than accounting for those between jobs and coming out of college. illegal immigrants come here and do the jobs that americans refuse to do to begin with. i've said it before, i'll say it again...if i lived in a hell-hole like that, where i worried about the health of my children and where their next meal was coming from, i promise you i'd be over here working to feed them. i would never ask someone to apologize for that. and it bothers me when americans in particular hold nationalism and their own interests higher than people.
Illegal immigrants though currently pay for those services through sales taxes and property taxes. Many also pay social security taxes and payroll taxes and at the moment don't get anything back for those. The key is more people working equals more people spending which equal more tax revenue. Having a larger legal labor force means that they are contributing into the system. As far as those schools closing down since we don't have a year round most schools close or drop to limited service during the summer already. If communities have a season population shifts that's not going to be a problem as resort communities deal with that every year without a problem. This argument has never made sense to me. So we're exploiting them by letting them come here, willingly, and work. Since we don't want to be racist and discriminatory we should keep them in their own country where they are poor and don't have much prospects to advance. That sounds to me like global apartheid. As for immigrant doctors, technicians and engineers to come over that is exactly the type of people the government currently wants. High tech companies complain about the shortage of high tech employers many rural areas in America are underserved by health care because there aren't enough US doctors willing to work in general practice or in smaller areas. As another poster pointed out we currently have low unemployment and there still are sectors that are underserved so immigrants aren't take jobs from Americans even in those sectors. Even dropping for a moment that immigrants are taking jobs from Americans, which they aren't, is that if Americans are failing to fill in certain sectors that is showing there is a problem with the US that we need to fix. If we don't have enough doctors in GP then we should start training more GP doctors and encouraging medical students to go into GP. If we just resort to protectionism then remove the impetus for us to address that problem.
Of course people from Indonesia and Vietnam should have as much of a shot to come here as Mexico. The problem is that the current system which is heavily underground favors those closer. The fairness argument that Deckard makes is exasperatted by the very situation that we have where people closer have a better shot of getting in. Its why I pointed out is why we get more mar1juana from Mexico than Thailand because under a blackmarket with no regulation the geographic advantage is much greater. If we open the borders more people from Indonesia will have a better shot of coming here than they do now since they can come here openly instead of smuggling themselves.
Rhester; I don't have time to respond to your points fully and I believe that some of them have already been addressed in other posts. I will try to come back to them later. I did want to address your issue about the melting pot. America has survived waves of immigration and come out better for it. You talk about values being undermined by immigrants and frankly I'm wondering what values you're talking about. By far the vast vast majority of immigrants, legal and illegal, come here to work. The fact that illegal immigrants will come here and willing work including contributing to social security with no hope of getting it back shows that they aren't here to live off of our teat. Isn't hard work and sacrifice to better oneself and one's family a value that we Americans prize? As for other so called American values what other way to spread and encourage American values than to expose immigrants to our culture? Americans said the same thing about the Irish, Italians and Polish. That poor central and eastern European Catholics would undermine American value. American values weren't undermined by the influx of people derided as Papists and I don't see our values being undermined now. I can tell you that the generation of SE Asian immigrants who came here 30 years ago are not only as committed to the values of democracy and individual liberties as people whose ancestors came on the Mayflower but they have also greatly increased our economy and culture.
I am in volved in an immigration case right now for a man in our church. It is a bureacratic nightmare. He has been married to an American citizen for over 10 yrs. and he still can't legally work. I have had to send in all my financial records to INS and all kind of personal paper work to try and sponsor his process. I can't believe the complication of the process- seems like alot is wasted motion. So yes, we need reform badly. I stand though that doing it illegally is a very bad solution. We need a good solution, not more bad ones. We need protection of our borders. My grandparents came from Mexico and I'm not sure if it was legal at all. I also realize if I could save the whole world it would have already happened. But I can make a difference in my world. We can be a real refuge for people and it can last for generations if we handle that role ethically and compassionately. I think it would be nice if our government could work with common sense without expensive and complicated bureacracy.
You missed my point on values. I did not say that values were undermined by immigration. They are not undermined by immigration they are strengthened- if we have a melting pot mentality and a ethical process. It is uncontrolled illegal immigration that is a danger to a nation's values. Regardless of the nation and the values. That is the reason for borders. Borders protect national distinction. We have historically assimilated immigrants through teaching, indoctrination, allegiance, loyalty and pledge. Illegal immigration destroys that process. I do not think immigration is a wrong in the least. We are a nation of immigrants. Immigration is what makes America a melting pot. But the term melting pot means that we take those who come, those who look for refuge and they assimilate into what is American... I would say to you that the biggest problem is not immigration but we do not agree or know what is American. I love culture. My culture is Mexican. I grew up eating, thinking, and living Mexican culture. But I went to school and learned what makes America distinct and I learned what I pledged my allegiance to. I have spent alot of time in Mexico and it is not America. The government is different, ethics, culture, business, civil liberty, human rights, values, goals, laws, justice, and visions are very different. Americans are no better than anyone in Mexico, maybe better off and I understand that problem- but we are equal in God's eyes. We are different. At least by my observation. SHould we be different? I can't answer that. We are different nations though. I know that every culture has wonderful elements. But with immigration we are not dealing with an issue whether cultures should be mixed, I think they should; we are dealing with the assimilation of cultures legally and in a way that is value added to what makes America a sovereig nation. That is an issue of borders and what protections and profit is there in a secure national border. At least that is what I am addressing. Do we need borders? I think we do. And not because I do not welcome other people to our melting pot. I think we need to have core American values that define our citizenship. It has always been that way in our history. I know there has been prejudice and hate also against immigration- I detest that. I suffered that growing up in a small red neck tx town when I was called a 1/2 wetback. But immigration policy should not be based upon hate and prejudices. If we are to have no American identity and vision then the whole issue takes on another meaning for me. I am for an immigration policy that supports a value added refuge for those who can find a better life here. One that has a process, not one that is without rules or requirements. But one that is fair and compassionate. I think this is why I am jaded at politics. I am all for the immigrant and the natural citizen. I like it when people are helped. What I do not support is knee jerk moves that threaten common sense and ignore a fair policy. I think we are compassionate, ethical, intelligent and fair enough to have a policy that works. I don't have any problem with those who think the borders should be more open. I do have a problem with illegal activity and poor processes. I would gladly support a system that allows a fair incorporation of immigrants legally who add value to that which makes America a great nation. This has been our history.
"As for other so called American values what other way to spread and encourage American values than to expose immigrants to our culture? Americans said the same thing about the Irish, Italians and Polish. That poor central and eastern European Catholics would undermine American value. American values weren't undermined by the influx of people derided as Papists and I don't see our values being undermined now. I can tell you that the generation of SE Asian immigrants who came here 30 years ago are not only as committed to the values of democracy and individual liberties as people whose ancestors came on the Mayflower but they have also greatly increased our economy and culture." Sishir, I am for immigration. That is America. I understand. I know that there has been hate and prejudice against immigrants. My point is that we have an 'illegal' immigration problem today that is unprecedented and we need a good solution. I believe in borders and good immigration policy. That is my bottom line. I do not favor open borders at this time. And not because I don't like my cousins, aunts and uncles who live in Mexico.
People said this as if this was true. They said that these illegal immigrants are paying into the system without getting anything back. I say hogwash. If that was true why is our system overloaded, especially those located in the border states? Most immigrants don't pay tax because they are not inside the system. They get paid by cash. A good part of the reason why these companies hire them is because they work for very low wages and the companies do not have to pay for their benefits. If they become legal, and the companies have to pay SS, work comp, insurance benefits, ... these companies won't be able to. You are comparing those apartments to resort communities? Just great. You must live in one! Have you ever seen apartment complexes who are near abandon? Do you know who live and what goes on there?
Good stuff, rhester. And good luck getting Sishir to buy it. I'm not sure exactly what Sishir expects this country to be. My point earlier was about fairness and following the law. You and I are in accord. Sishir apparently doesn't think that is needed. I'm not sure when he would say, "enough is enough!" Sishir, the airline industry still struggles. Trust me... if we just lease all the surplus planes, fly them into countries around the world, including some developed countries with employment problems, they will come back full. We can set up a shuttle system, and just keep those people coming here from all over the world. They want to come. I've traveled around the world, and talked to a lot of people. They want to come. I know you have, as well. Do you deny it? Do you think there would be an end to it? How many illegal immigrants are enough? 100 million? 200 million? 300 million? They will come, if they can get here. Using your logic, we should help them get here. Let's be fair. Send the 747's. Boeing can use the business. It'll help create jobs. D&D. Replicant City.
How hard is it to understand that is wrong? You make all of your arguments based on this: "The immigrants only take the low paying jobs that nobody wants". If some of them move on up and take high paying jobs, would that make your whole argument obsolete? If you have open border, if there are 10 of millions of immigrants with education or skills or if they raise children with skills, and one day take up the better jobs. Are you planning to stop them then? You are making arguments out both sides of your mouth and not knowing it. On the one hand, you say if we lack hi paying professionals, we should not depend on importing them but rather train more inside the country so we don't lose high paying jobs to foreigner. On the other hand, the solution to the low paying jobs is to bring in the immigrants? Talking about apartheid!!
Reading these posts again, make me realize some people are trying to solve a problem with a wrong solution. I am all for people everywhere to live in peace, with freedom, prosperity ... but the solution is not to open the US border. I am not against the immigrants coming into this country. We all are immigrants at one time or another. The problem is that an open border is the wrong way to solve the problem. There is no way our infra-structure can support it. The way the goverment is doing this are also just bandages that will leak at one time or another. The right way is to help everyone, every country to become free, to develop their own economy so all people all around the world can live in peace and prosperity. How do we do it? To start with, ... don't spend billions of dollars to build more bombs, use them to develop industries, factories and the likes ...
I'm not making points I'm gathering information also . . .. the fear is that allow others to come here will pull down their state of being If you live in a Mansion . .it is good Move 300 people into it .. it is an Apt Complex off Fondren and W Bellfort [supposed worse part of Houston] That being the case Would you be ok with people pouring into your mansion even if they trimmed the hedges? Rocket River
Annie and I got engaged yesterday and will be getting married soon. I'm thinking that we will start a blog for everyone to follow once we start her citizenship process. I think it would be cool for lots of people to see what someone has to go through to do it LEGALLY. She does everything right even though it would be real easy not to.
