I'd be fine with that. I just understand that it's radical. So I think Kinky's plan is a fair compromise.
the blame isnt on the people invading a country? how modern...blame anyone but the people breaking the rules. How about blaming mexico for continually neglecting its poor and even encouraging people to illegally enter the states? but i agree, let them come but you have to have controls and you have to know who is coming and going.
judging by the fact that immigration has increased to the u.s. since its inception, i would say it has had a negative effect. ironic, since it was touted as this grand thing which would provide jobs in mexico and make people want to stay. like it or not, the north american union is rolling full steam ahead. it doesnt matter what we think about it. ask the average euro how they fell about the european union.
how is breaking one law worse than the other? easy. killing a innocent child is worse than jaywalking. trespassing is worse than jaywalking. Im not necessarily arguing the rule of law. There are plenty of silly laws. I dont like to get too much into laws but there are certain duties that as people i think should be considered. For example, if someone wants to go somewhere and live then so be it. But is it the responsible thing sneak into that place? No, its not. what is responsible is to go through the proper channels, ask for permission, get the right paper work, once you are in that place embrace it and follow some of the norms (like have car insurance, dont constantly reach for govt handouts,..although that may be a norm, etc). it comes down to common courtesy and respect for others. Of course i've only lived near the border for 23 years of my life...so its not like i have experience with the complete disregard that some illegals show in this country whats even more of a joke is that even if they are captured there isnt much that can be done and most of the time cops arent allowed to even ask if they are legal. Not that it would make much difference b/c the punishment is next to non-existant....im all for new ways to punish, btw, buts thats a different subject. but who are the "legitimate" suppliers for labor? the Coyotes? The difference is that alcohol went from a regular store baught good, to a blackmarket good. Well illegal workers has been blackmarket for ages now. well there is always demand to pay someone less to do the job, its cost effective...kinda like how there was demand to own someone and have them do the dirty work for basically free. maybe i havent been clear, im for some type of program where people can work here but again, there has to be controls and you have to know who is coming and going. If you have some type of worker program, great. That being said, you cant just open up the borders and absorb all the mexico's poor. thats out of touch with reality! i agree, new laws that actually have some meaning and more importantly has teeth. but at the same time, immigration laws cant just allow millions of people to continually enter the country unchecked. Not only that, local laws cant continually allow people who do not follow said laws still be able to operate in the society. there will always be a blackmarket for the trade of labor/people. I think its niave to think immigration laws will get rid of that.
Speed is often a cause of vehicular death so then is speeding OK? What if some is killed because they crossed at an unmarked crossing. I saw a woman today run across three lanes of traffic where the average speed of cars was going about 40. What if a driver swerved to avoid hitting her and caused a bigger accident? Your judgement of law is totally subjective yet you are complaining about people not obeying the laws. But you are arguing about rule of law. You're basically saying follow this rule but yet you seem fine with breaking other rules. As far as the "constantly reaching for government handouts" its already been addressed that they are paying for them in terms of taxes. Well good for you. I've only spent decades living in South Texas and California along with working in restaurant kitchens in high school and college and years doing oversight on construction crews so obviously my experience with illegal immigrants pales compared to your 23 years of life living near the border. As for courtesy and respect yes that would be good. I wish people would show some courtesy and respect by not speeding, crossing at marked crosswalks, and not tailgaiting. All which violate the laws. Slightly tangential but I agree that police should be able to ask for immigration status. While I think our laws should be changed and am advocating change police are still charged with enforcing the law. As for the punishment that is deportation. Well at one time there was no borders and people moved freely but to address your point to our historical context we have always had illegal immigration. Through most of our history the borders were poorly enforced and labor moved relatively freely accross the border. Migrant labor has picked produce and built houses for decades (much more than 23 years) with few problems. The blackmarket on labor is something that has pretty much existed because our laws have largely been irrelevent to the historical nature of the border. In case you aren't that familiar with geography Mexico is a big country and much of their most poor and desperate are in the south of the country. Even if we opened our border completely it would still be difficult and costly for much of Mexico's poor to make it here. For instance even in our own country its not like all of the poor from Mississippi can up and move to Silicon valley even though there are no legal restrictions on movement from one US state to another. As for your claim of that being out of touch with reality I don't know how you can posit on a reality that doesn't exist since we don't have all of Mexico's poor here and never have. As I said before I'm not advocating allowing millions of people to enter unchecked. The problem is that our current laws are out of touch with the reality that we have many people entering and the black market is what has allowed them to enter unchecked. If our laws were more in tune with the reality and allowed many more people to enter then we could check them. To a certain extent yes there will just like even though alchohal is legal there still are bootleggers. While we might never do away with the blackmarket we can greatly reduce the affect of it. For example even though there are still bootleggers there power and numbers are far less than they were under prohibition because it isn't worth most people the trouble to obtain alchohal illegally when it is legal. Anyway we don't know for sure if we greatly opened up immigration how much the market would still look for illegal labor. I would be interested in finding that out but until then its all speculative.
well thats vehicular (sp?) manslaughter which either could or couldnt have been caused by speeding. personal valuation is subjective and we are talking about how much we value one thing as opposed to the other. personally i dont think you can value jaywalking and trespassing on a foreign countries soil as equal, but if you do then so be it. no, i dont think im saying that. Im arguing about not letting millions of people enter this country, or any country, unchecked, undocumented and unrestrained. pay for a fraction, perhaps, but i wouldnt be surprised if their benefits exceed their contributions. You are also assuming that illegals pay taxes, that isnt necessarily true. but not the courtesy of not invading a country? the problem is that deportion isnt effective enough, its just delaying the inevitable. there should be more harsh punishment, but not in todays world. so because we have always had it its ok? i agree there should be some type of work program where people can come over, im really not overly concerned with the respectible people that come to do honest work and try to be part of america and a good 'citizen'...and that doesnt constitue hanging out under a bridge and flocking to ever truck at the stop light. But i dont think you can continue to allow it unchecked, especially since the number of people coming over seem to be increasing. i dont think transportation cost is significant enough to really detour anyone and thats a pretty weak hope. . even with regulations and rules, blackmarket labor will still be there. Especially since even with certain rules it will typically be cheaper and easier to go straight to the source for your cheap labor, rather than wait on whatever process will be put in place. yeah, in tune with reality. Control the borders and the flow of people who do not have the right to be here by not going through the proper channels. But you still have to stop being from going through the back door
Speed though is often a factor that leads to accidents. That is one of the reasons why we have laws on speeding. They both are matter of laws. If you are willing to tolerate law breaking on one hand but not on the other I would suggest you drop the argument that we need to stop illegal immigration simply because it is is illegal. I agree they should respect the law but the law is what has caused the problem by being out of touch with the reality of the current situation. And as I said if you change the laws you can put checks and documentation on them. If you are concerned about checks and documentation the easiest thing to do is bring immigration laws more in line with the demand for immigration so it isn't underground. Prohibition didn't seriously limit the flow of alchohal but it guarenteed that that flow was unregulated. Studies have already been conducted and cited in this thread. One study by the Heritage foundation said that illegals take more in government services than they pay in in taxes while another by the Cato foundation said that they pay much more. It should be noted in the article citing the Heritage Foundation study did not that the figures in it seemed inflated. Another thing that both studies missed though is regarding what impact do illegals have on inflation. Its a given that illegals keep inflation down by keeping wages low. By doing that they benefit the economy far more than they hurt it. How are they invading? They aren't forcing people to hire them. If anything they are being invited in by employers willing to hire them. What do you advocate we put them in prison? If you're going to imprison illegals then they really are going to cost more since prison is very expensive. That goes against your argument that somehow we are facing something unprecendent but it also shows that we always been able to deal with immigration both legal and illegal. Far from this being an invasion this is something we have always lived with. And for the most part most they are here to do honest work. Statistics haven't shown that illegals commit more crime, besides entering illegally of course, and as noted they studies have shown they pay into the tax base, even the Heritage Foundation noted that, and also help out the economy by keeping inflation low. As for living under the bridge I've seen a lot of American citizens living under the bridge and judging by their accents the people that hit me up at stop lights are American citizens. Once again though why haven't all the poor people from Mississippi moved to Silicon Valley when there is no legal impediment? Why go through the back door when you can come through the front? As noted even without prohibition there are bootleggers who try to evade regulations on alchohal. Those bootleggers though don't have the power Al Capone because for most people its easy enough to obtain alchohal legally. If immigration is more inline with the reality that we have many many more people coming here than our quotas allow its likely they will choose the front door versus continuing with the risky black market. Consider if you were a Mexican coming here to work and you knew you could cross at a safe legal crossing why would you still pay a coyote to smuggle you in a dangerous desert crossing.
Because silicon valley has the most expensive real estate of almost anywhere? moving there would cost more than transportation. and if you have zero skills its unlikely you can undercut someone out of their job there. Unlike in the hotel industry and making the journey from mexico to here.
i know. i've said several times that laws need to be redone. I'm agree with you on most everything. the biggest difference is that i think that its wrong to enter a country if you do not at least register and let your presence be known. Sorry, but sneaking across the desert in the middle of the night is just not going to cut it. well the numbers will certainly be twisted to fit a certain groups agenda. floods of people sneaking into a country. thats dam close to invasion. no, prison is not the way to go. i'd personally go for a more direct and swift course of action but that will never happen. . i think the current situation is different than past. different time, different situation. i know that a good number are decent people that mean well. Let them come. set up a program for the 'good guys'. great. I agree. But they still need to be limiting the amount of undocumented people entering. that really doesnt seem like a good example. exactly. so come through the front door like a normal person and stop sneaking into the freaking window. And i understand laws dont allow that b/c it takes a lot of time to go through the proper channels but tough titty, other people can wait well so can you. it may decrease, but there will still be big business in sneaking people in b/c no matter what laws are set into place, to more easily allow legit working people willing to make a commitement to being an good upstanding part of this society, there will still be more people wanting in than the system is willing , and should, accomidate. But the US will have to enforce stricter bored laws (those that bypass the proper channels of the 'new' system) b/c whats the point of going through the process if you can just walk around it? right?
And you don't believe that the cost of living in Texas, or anywhere in the US, is comparable to Mexico? Living in Houston is far more costly than transportation from Chiapas to Texas. There are a lot of hotels in Silicon Valley.
Fair enough. Lets change the laws to let the people who might otherwise sneak in come in legally. Though if someone shows up and you willingly give them a job how is that an invasion? Did the Kuwaitis voluntarily give the Iraqis jobs when they invaded in 1990? The term "invasion" implies an unwelcome force. If you're going to call this an "invasion" then the only invasion that it would be like is the British Invasion of 1964 when we willingly shelled out cash and adoring fans to the Beatles. What kill them? How is it different? We've had immigration both legal and illegal for almost the whole history of the US including waves that by percentage of the population were much larger than the current immigration situation. What makes now different than then? How is it not a good example? You say that by opening up our borders every poor person in Mexico will come here. I presume that it is because they want a better way of life yet we see with open borders between the US states that doesn't lead to every poor person from one part of the country flooding into another part of the country. Again though that is where the law is creating an artificial impediment. Why not remedy the law instead. Because if the illegal process is more difficult than the legal there is no reason to engage in the illegal process.
well it isnt hard to just start walking. That will always be easier than having to deal with the bureaucracy of the govt. Plus, people that dont want to have their presence known, will still be going in the back ultimately, there needs to be a fast track type of system (or guest worker program...whatever you want to call it) that allows people willing to work and adapt to this countries system to be able to come here and work after certain information of theirs is taken. This will fill the "need" for cheap labor. but at the same time you have to strict enforce border policy and do whatever you can to severely limit the amont of people not following the protocals because the new system should not allow ALL of the people currently entering, to enter. the whole point is account and document for those who enter and to restrict entry to those who do not go through the proper channel.
where can i go? http://www.unitedpatriotsofamerica.com/Home/Popup_Article_Details/Params/articles/1125/default.aspx Racist Pro-Illegal Alien 'Hatemail' Gets A Rebuttal By Daneen G. Peterson, Ph.D. August 1, 2005 When your 'weapon' is not a sword, but a 'pen,' you expect that not everyone will agree with what you have to say. You also expect that your readers will occasionally challenge your information with a riposte of their own! What is unacceptable, is a response to your writings that begets the kind of ad hominem 'hatemail' you will see below. It was sent in response to an article written by me entitled: Blatant Racism by the Pro-illegal Alien Crowd (Part 3), posted below on 6/21/05. Blatant Racism (Part 3) was a column that profiled the racist MEChA organization and an anti-American, Mexican 'Madrassa' public school located here in America. My standard writing technique consists of using the racists' own words to let them indict themselves. As such, at the end of the above article, you will find a racist quote that came from one of the more vicious hate filled websites, similar to the La Voz de Atzlan, called: In Support of World Wide Indigenous Revolution, at this URL: http://www.mexicauprising.net/buryingthewhitegods.html. On the right hand side of that web page, you will see the following school logo and an extremely racist quote from Marcos Aguilar, the principal of the taxpayer financed, public school, called the Academia Semillas del Pueblo, in Los Angeles, California (where else!): The following 'hatemail,' is unedited, and came from a person who is obviously 'grammatically challenged.' Perhaps this person was a former graduate of the 'Academia Semillas?' That is a strong possibility since the hate spewed forth by its author, has all the 'hallmarks' of an having been exposed to a principal who has espoused similar pure, unadulterated, fanatical anti-American, anti-white racism. This is the 'hatemail' and below that you will find my equally 'vibrant' riposte! Hello, I have a solution to all your problems. All Europeans need to go back to where they came from, Europe! American was never for white Europeans! When the savages landed on the Mayflower, they started pretending to like the Native Americans already here, then they turned around and killed them by massive amounts. You think you have a problem with Immigrants, why don't you go back to Europe! After all, Mexico and the American continent belongs more to Mexicans and Native American than white twisted, and narrow minded so called white Americans. Go back to Europe, where you belong! Mexicans and Natives has always been on this continent, and will continue to be here until the very last. You are the Pure racist, its hard to believe that you call yourself a doctor. What kind of doctor are you? KKK with a stamp on your degree that spells White Supremacy Graduate. You are the pure racist. Your white race have been and will always be a twisted, short minded, hypocritical, immoral, and full of hate since your birth of time immemorial. You hate the fact of what you see on the your streets, supermarket, parks, and freeways are a majority of brown faces. You appear to be so Ignorant, as you have always been of deciphering Mexican, Central Americans, South Americans, and Arabs of color. Apparently your ignorance shows beyond description of an evil person. In another note, part or all of the United States of America is stolen land. Land that was stolen by twisted and evil Manifest destiny demons. YOU ARE LIVING IN AMERICA AS THE MOST DEMONIC SAVAGE PERSON WHO'S EUROPEAN DESCENDANTS KILLED ALMOST EVERY SINGLE INDIGENOUS NATIVE ON AMERICAN LAND ON PURPOSE SO YOU COULD TAKE OVER AND LIVE ON THIS LAND ILLEGALLY. You are the most illegal person on this continent, and this so called America is not yours, never has been, and it will never. History will show that you are a most pathetic person out to claim something that you think is rightfully yours, but in reality your are full of **** as the KKK, Skull and bones, and every secret evil society that has existed in white America. I'm sure you know of skull and bones and u.s presidents who belong to a twisted and immoral clubs. Like most hateful white America, I'm sure you and your KKK friends will initiate hate sprees on brown faces, and you will do it with the most cowardly attitude, like in the old times and now you with the new times. You will act in the most treacherous ways to make Immigrants miserable and you are going to do it with a white mask on, the mask of the white coward and most evil person on the planet earth. You don't deserve America, because you are the cancer that makes America sick! Hypocrite, Racist, Evil, Lire, and an opportunist, that's what you are! Dear Not Enough 'Guts' to Sign Your Name, Ooooohhhhh, what's that matter . . . TRUTH hurt??? Feeling a little NAKED AND EXPOSED?? Just for the record, YOU'RE the problem. Go back to Mexico where YOU belong! Quit dragging our magnificent country down into your third-world Mexican cesspool. Also, some more advice for you and your racist Raza . . . quit living in the past 'fantasy' world you have created for yourselves. It makes you look even more pathetic! You apparently don't understand that our WHITE EUROPEAN ANCESTORS and THEIR DESCENDANTS EARNED the right to be here in America! I know that is an alien concept for you to comprehend, but it was our WHITE EUROPEAN ANCESTORS and others, who took this naked, virgin land and made something out of it! We paid money for it, we fought for it, shed our blood for it, and won wars for it (including the Mexican-American War). We tamed it, farmed it, industrialized it and built it into the prosperous nation that exists today. If you think that we AMERICANS (you'll notice I didn't say, English, Irish, French, German, Italian, Dutch, Scottish, etc.) will stand by and let you and your ILLEGAL ALIEN MEXICAN compadres continue to overrun and ruin our country, defile our AMERICAN culture, and pollute our English language, you are sadly mistaken. We AMERICANS of all nationalities, made this country what it is today! Now you, Hispanics and Latinos, think you can come here illegally and take over! You're dreaming! If you think your ancestors could have achieved all that we have, had THEY lived here all along, then why have they accomplished so little in THEIR Hispanic and Latino countries. You dishonest racist jerks are always looking to lay the blame on everyone but yourselves. Isn't it interesting that the countries you Hispanics and Latinos populate and run, are nearly ALL corrupt, oligarchy/dictator lead, crime ridden, poverty stricken, third world slums. That would seem to PROVE your Raza's ineptness and inability to accomplish what our WHITE EUROPEAN CULTURE has achieved here in America! We're not running your countries, YOU ARE! Now, because your countries are such cesspools, you leave there and illegally invade our country and think you are going to take over. Fat chance!! You flock to America to escape what your countries have become, and then have the audacity to try and blame Americans for your pathetic nation's political, social and economic, incompetence. Soon . . . 'We the People' WILL rise up and take back our county from you ILLEGALS. You and you 'ilk' are nothing but anarchist, anti-American, hate-filled, RACISTS! We don't want you here! LEAVE! You don't belong here! You have no LEGAL right to be here! GO HOME or wait and get deported, and take your twisted, fanatical, perverted, historical fantasies with you! From a Native American,(1) Daneen G. Peterson, Ph.D. PS: I know who you are, and I know where you live! BTW . . . isn't Vincente Fox and many of the 'elites' in Mexico of WHITE EUROPEAN (SPANISH) DESCENT? 1. Daneen G. Peterson, Ph.D., Are We a 'Nation of Immigrants' as Claimed by the Pro-Illegal Alien Crowd?, Posted below on 4/27/05. Copyright 2006 by Daneen G. Peterson, Ph.D Home
And you don't believe that there aren't people doing that and willing to do that in Silicon Valley? Have you been to the Bay Area? Once again the argument that opening our borders more will lead to all of the poor Mexicans moving to the US is flawed because there are various factors including cost, that keep many poor people from automatically migrating from their homes to a place with a much more robust economy even with no legal impediments.
Not if you have to start walking through a dangerous desert as opposed to a legal border crossing. Agreed and I think it comes down to a matter of numbers. My impression is that I would allow far far more people in than you are. In this regard I agree with Bush's immigration policy as the most reasonable compromise. I would like to see the numbers go higher but I think Bush's immigration policy is a good start.
This is responding to Meowgi's post. Both quotes essentially recognize the fact that European Americans came over here and slaughtered native Americans to take over the continent. The only difference is the spin. I don't see how anything in the second post contradicts the first. The white Europeans earned their right to be here by slaughtering and swindling Native Americans would only be justification in thier own minds while certainly Native Americans wouldn't consider being slaughtered and swindled as being legitimate justification to the land. For that matter if its about how much work a group of people put into the land and the economy couldn't illegals argue they have earned the right to stay here through all of their work picking produce, working construction, and other service jobs to help keep this country productive?
Without commenting on the article, given his obsessive repition of his PhD credentials in association with his name, it is obvious that Mr. Peterson is suffering from a large intelectual inferiority complex.
I'm not taking a side, but should America let people in that hold these views? Is encouraging more people to come here an insult to American Indians? F*** The Alamo. (Hank Hill would kick their ass) Spoiler
