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Why is everyone so high on Golden State's players?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Hydra, May 21, 2001.

  1. Lil Francis

    Lil Francis Member

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    Thats right [​IMG] One day he will be one of the top shooting guards in the league.

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    President of the Steve Francis, Jamal Crawford,Larry Hughes, and Charles Woodson fan club.
     
  2. haven

    haven Member

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    Hmm... right...

    ... the standard mark of great shooting guards then must be to play crummy defense, play selfishly, and miss the vast majority of shots. Larry Hughes has tons of talent, but will never amount to much, unless he makes some serious changes.

    He played well under Gary St. Jean? Let's see...

    16.5 pts (not bad)
    .383 fg& (worse than abysmal)
    .187 3pt% (amazingly horrible - barely possible)
    4.5 a (not bad)
    3.0 to (hmmm...)
    5.5 reb (not bad)

    So, the guy's athletic and has skills... but needs so much work that there's no way of knowing if he'll ever be a star. I admit, I didn't know he gave ou that many assists and grabbed that many boards... but .1873pt%? Come on...

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    A few years back on the Senate floor...
    Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe."
    Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!"

    Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
     
  3. Achebe

    Achebe Member

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    .387% from the field? No wonder Larry Brown said that he had more of an upside than Allen Iverson.

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    women love me, fish fear me.
     
  4. Swopa

    Swopa Member

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    Umm, it would help if you actually listed the stats he put up when St. Jean was the coach -- i.e., last year, not this one.

    Most of the numbers are comparable, with the notable exception of averaging 22.7 points per game.



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  5. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    Somebody stop the madness

    Oh ok, I got it now. It's madness to use cold hard facts and statistics to prove Hughes certainly isn't a star shooting guard and is far from one, but it's ok for you to completely make up facts such as Collier giving up 20 a game (which I disproved on a game by game basis in another thread) to make him look bad? Thanks for explaining the logic. [​IMG]

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  6. haven

    haven Member

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    Swopa:

    Oh... well, playing for Golden State the yera before, his 3pt & was 23%, and his fg% was slightly below 40%...

    so he's actually getting worse? Stars of the future usually don't regress in their 3rd season. What a feat! Hughes managed to take horrendous stats and make them worse... that's amazing!

    He had more assists and rebounds, but largely as a function of more playing time.

    Ugh.



    ------------------
    A few years back on the Senate floor...
    Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe."
    Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!"

    Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001
     
  7. jelanit

    jelanit Member

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    Also, dont forget that Antawn was the best player at UNC when he came out. With the zone coming to the NBA, I believe he could regain his former prowess.

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  8. Moe

    Moe Member

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    Haven, for crying out loud, he's got mad hops . TheCat, Collier ain't got mad hops .

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    [This message has been edited by Moe (edited May 22, 2001).]
     
  9. DarkHorse

    DarkHorse Member

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    I'm kind of suprised Swopa didn't mention it, but in case none of you noticed, Golden State had a RIDICULOUS year with injuries as well... There's no doubt in my mind that a huge part of their outright sucking (not saying that they would be a force sans injuries, but...) this season was a pure result of the injury bug.

    I don't think Warriors fans should be too upset with their team, as long as everyone comes back healthy, etc... They'll be alright...

    [​IMG]

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    "There are three kinds of lies:
    Lies, Damned Lies, and STATISTICS..."
    - Mark Twain -

    [This message has been edited by DarkHorse (edited May 22, 2001).]
     
  10. Hydra

    Hydra Member

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    THESE players were not injured, for the most part. If I were talking about Fortson or Dampier, then injuries would be a factor.

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    You can't stick a porcupine in a barn, light it on fire, and expect to get licorice.
     
  11. Lil Francis

    Lil Francis Member

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    Ok lets see Hughes on one side Collier on the other......WOW thats an even topic [​IMG]



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    President of the Steve Francis, Jamal Crawford,Larry Hughes, and Charles Woodson fan club.
     
  12. Lil Francis

    Lil Francis Member

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    But you don't realize that he needed shoulder surgery while he was playing
    this year. When Philly traded him to G.S. 2yrs ago he was averaging 23pts a game in his 40 games played with the Warriors. He will bounce back in 2001. He and Jamison are one of the top young duos in the league when they are healthy.



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    President of the Steve Francis, Jamal Crawford,Larry Hughes, and Charles Woodson fan club.
     
  13. The Cat

    The Cat Member

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    Ok lets see Hughes on one side Collier on the other......WOW thats an even topic

    What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't matter if the players we're comparing are Jason Collier and Shaquille O'Neal! All I was saying is that you're basically refuting and saying cold hard facts on Hughes don't tell the story (someone you like), while at the same time trying to create facts which aren't even close to true to degrade Collier (someone you hate). All I meant was its a little ironic-- doesn't have anything to do with how good the players are, or the gap between them.

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  14. Swopa

    Swopa Member

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    Yeah, Hughes only missed 32 games due to injury (and played hurt in several others).

    By Golden State standards, that's scarcely being injured at all. [​IMG]


    Haven, I'm having trouble keeping track of which side of your mouth you're speaking out of. First, your argument was that Hughes had always sucked. Now that it's been proven otherwise (by the way, the polite response when that happens is to say, "Thank you, Swopa, I stand corrected," not change the subject), you want to make hay about his "regressing."

    I already pointed out that Cowens' poor offensive game plan hampered Hughes this year -- and, as I mentioned, he wasn't the only SG on the team who had this problem. As others have pointed out, injuries were also a factor.

    But don't take my word for it. At the end of the season, Antawn Jamison said Hughes was the most important teammate he wanted the Warriors to hang onto as they looked at offseason changes. Perhaps he's aware that GS was 4-28 in the games that Hughes missed.

    Oh, and you're wrong on this, too. Hughes played fewer minutes per game this year than he did for GS last year (36.9 versus 40.8).
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    [This message has been edited by Swopa (edited May 22, 2001).]
     
  15. haven

    haven Member

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    swopa:

    There's no doubletalk.

    Hughes isn't a very good player. He's never been a very good player. A player doesn't need to be good to "regress." Don't put words into my mouth.

    Hughes had an atrocious fg%. That fg% became even more ridiculously horrific. Hence, he regressed. What do you not understand in that?

    When players throw up bad shots, there's still hope for them. But Hughes shot EIGHTEEN FREAKIN' PERCENT from the 3pt line. That's beyond obscene for a SG. He can't evne shoot 40% from the field. This means he doesn't have a place on quality team.

    Oh, and your evidence consists of Antawn Jamison's assessment? What did you expect him to say: Larry sucks? He's his teammate.

    Hughes needs: an attitude adjustment, basketball IQ, defensive prowess, and a better jump shot. It's not IMPOSSIBLE he'll get all of these things, just not very likely. If you like athletic but worthless players with bad attitude, fine... but don't expect the rest of the world to agree with you.

    Oh, and on the issue of minutes: Right there, I was referring to the aggregate year. I extrapolated with points and %, but not with rebs and assists.

    ------------------
    A few years back on the Senate floor...
    Phil Gramm: "If Democrats could, they'd tax the air we breathe."
    Ted Kennedy (jumping up): "By God, why didn't I think of that sooner!"

    Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001

    [This message has been edited by haven (edited May 22, 2001).]
     
  16. Lil Francis

    Lil Francis Member

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    Haven, when Hughes and Forston were in the lineup the Warriors were playing with alot of heart and Hughes was playing team ball. But after Fortson broke his foot the whole team just kinda went in a tailspin. Fortson was averaging like 15boards a game before
    he was hurt which ment more shot attempts for jamison and hughes.

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    President of the Steve Francis, Jamal Crawford,Larry Hughes, and Charles Woodson fan club.
     
  17. Swopa

    Swopa Member

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    Just to be clear, Hughes never stopped playing "team ball" -- his shots per game dropped 25% this year from his first half-season with GS, and he never complained about it. Meanwhile, his assist numbers continued to improve, and he was 5th in the league in rebounding among guards (behind only McGrady, Kobe, Francis, and Kidd).

    The simple fact is that of all the injuries GS suffered this last year, losing Hughes was the one that really ripped the heart out of the team. Before he went down, they were still on a 30-win pace despite the loss of Fortson, Mills, Sura, Dampier, and Cummings for long stretches. With Hughes gone, though, the bottom immediately fell out.

    Regarding Jamison's comments, he was not merely standing up for a teammate -- in fact, it was nearly the opposite; he was identifying Hughes as the only one he WOULD stand up for. A reporter suggested to Antawn that the Warriors should blow up their entire roster except for him and their upcoming lottery pick. Jamison replied that they'd have to keep Hughes, too, adding, "I see something really special in Larry. I see one of the league's most potent 1-2 punches. People don't realize, he makes my game a lot easier." If you look at Jamison's FG% before and after Hughes was hurt, you'll understand what he means by that last sentence.

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    [This message has been edited by Swopa (edited May 23, 2001).]
     
  18. Swopa

    Swopa Member

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    Actually, you could double off everyone but Jamison ... and by the last couple months of the season, teams were. [​IMG]

    Erick Dampier may be available because the team's given up on him, or available because he's asked to be traded (noticing perhaps how Donyell Marshall rehabilitated his reputation quickly in Utah), or not available because GS knows how rare 7-footers with any combination of strength and mobility are.

    To bring others up to speed on Damp, since I may be the world's leading expert on his play [​IMG] ... He's dissed at home and around the league because of his big contract and shaky offensive game, but the fact is the Warriors were an above-average defensive team the 2 years he started every game, and his injuries (actually, one knee injury that's needed a couple of clean-up arthroscopes since) have been the main reason GS has been so bad defensively this year & the season before. (And if he's traded, my prediction is that the Warriors are a lock to finish in the bottom 5 of the league in defense, and last in the Pacific Division again.)

    Specifically, Dampier is an excellent low post defender, and guards Shaq 1-on-1 as well as or better than any other player I've seen (and yes, that includes Mutombo and the Twin Towers). Does a good job on Duncan, too.

    For those who'd like numbers: In three games against Damp this year, almost entirely without double-teaming, Shaq scored only 19 points (shooting 8-for-19 from the field, 3-for-8 on FTs). In those same games, he scored 32 points in fewer minutes matched up against Adonal Foyle (13-for-17 from the field, 6-for-12 on FTs). The difference? Shaq couldn't get position in the paint against Dampier, while he backed Foyle up under the rim the way he does with everyone else.

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    [This message has been edited by Swopa (edited May 23, 2001).]
     
  19. saleem

    saleem Member

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    This topic should be in another forum.

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  20. Hydra

    Hydra Member

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    Um, no. This is about aquiring players for the Rockets. That is a roster move and hence should be in the Rockets 2001: Game Action & Roster Moves forum. I know you see people posting "wrong forum" a lot, but only use it when apropriate.

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    You can't stick a porcupine in a barn, light it on fire, and expect to get licorice.
     

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