How much atleticism do we really need? How much emphasis do we put on "potential"? Here are the starting Centers for teams in the playoffs: WC Divac, David Robinson, Shag, LaFrentz, Nesterovic, Dale Davis, Jarron Collins, Jerome James EC Todd MacCollough, Clifford Robinson/Ben Wallace, Tony Battie/Potapenko, Elden Campbell, Mutombo, Grant/Ewing, Keon Clark, Brad Miller Can you honestly say that Cato isn't as athletic (I did not say " as good as" - there's a difference) as at least half of this group? Honestly? Here's the same for PF's: WC Webber, Duncan, Samaki Walker, Nowitski/Najera, Sam Mitchell, Rasheed, Malone, Vin Baker EC KMart, Clifford Robinson/Ben Wallace, Eric Williams, Lee Nailon/PJ Brown, Monty Williams/Pat Garrity, Derrick Coleman, JYD Williams/Antonio Davis, Jerome O'Neal Starting to see the trend yet? (Think only in terms of "athleticism"). OK, let's observe SF's for athleticism only: WC Peja, Bruce Bowen, Rick Fox, Nowitski/Najera, KG, Pippen, Bryon Russel/Kirilenko, Rashard. I'm too tired to do the EC but look at this group...excluding KG, how athletic is this group? My point is/was, the Rockets are athletic enough. Pure athleticism is way overrated. The selling point for those who missed it is Dunleavy's court smarts. Quick...name me the last supremely athletic SF who won an NBA championship? If Junior has 75% of the athletic ability of Woods or Butler and 95% of Bird's court smarts....oh yea Bird, another athletically gifted SF.
Kidrock- I've had this argument with you before, but I have still yet to see any facts on your side that back up your beleifs about Rudy's system and his misuse of Pippen. Below is what I;ve argued in the past, and I still hold too- This Pippen crap is just r****ded. He was used very effectively in Houston. Everyone just expected his numbers to skyrocket. That was unrealistic as Pippen wasn't the same player anymore and certainly wasnt the same without MJ/Phil/Triangle offense. Let's try and at least look at some facts. 97-98 CHI 5.20 rpg 5.8apg 1.80spg .98bpg 19.1ppg 98-99 HOU 6.50rpg 5.9apg 1.96spg .74bpg 14.5ppg 99-00 POR 6.30rpg 5.0apg 1.43spg .50bpg 12.5ppg 00-01 POR 5.20rpg 4.6apg 1.47spg .55bpg 11.3ppg 01-02 POR 5.30rpg 5.9apg 1.80spg .61bpg 11.0ppg The most obvious thing that stands out is a downward trend in his ppg since leaving Chicago. 14.5 ppg was at leasat respectable, his current average makes him out to be a Robert Horry type player. But, we don't know how he got those points. Nevertheless, in Rudy's inability to use him, he still averaged as high a number of rpg and apg and the highest spg as he had in his past 3 championship years in Chicago and all more than he has since. Playing solely as a spot-up shooter, apparantly, he managed to dish out almost as many assists on an average night as our current PG, Francis does. I remember wathcing that Pippen season closely and I remembered him doing many more things than spot up shooting. His numbers, at a rudimentary glance, seem to back that up. Don't get mad at Rudy because Scottie isn't the player we all thought he was going to be. to even further back up my argument with more statistical evidence, here are his 3pters taken/minutes played both for the entire season 95-96 CHI .142 96-97 CHI .137 97-98 CHI .116 98-99 HOU .105 99-00 POR .096 Surprise, surprise, Pippen was actually shotting three pointers more often when he was with the Bulls than when he moved to the Rockets. The Bulls must have sucked by misusing him in that way again, some of what i've said in the past and still stick too It was Pippen who failed to do any adjusting, not Rudy. It was Pippen who cried when he expected everything to come his way, who made an ass of himself when he left and genearlly dissapointed the whole season, yet still managed to match his stats over the previous three years (except in the scoring category - and it didnt matter with both Barkley and Olajuwon playing) and hasnt returned to those levels since, and still had one of the better SF seasons from any Rocket player in a long while. I think if a player shows Rudy they deserve to be on the floor and can make positive things happen while they're out there, he'll adjust his system to incorporate that player and all his skills, as he did with Pippen, and as he would do with a Rashard Lewis or Lamar Odom, etc, to the extent deemed necessary. I beleive the same can be said, in relation to this thread, abotu players like Woods and Butler. They will be used adequately. And from what I've seen/heard, Butler is the best defender of the bunch and thsu I would probably lean that way.
Gater, I agree with you if you are athletic, but just have almost no BB skills ("not a player"-could put Cato hear but he isn't exactly a fluid athlete with good hand eye coordination), that isn't going to do much for the team. But that is just one small take on this issue. Let me focus on the West for a monent: Do you honestly think D-Rob, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Webber, Christie, Garnett, Kirlinko, Wallace, Wells, Anderson, Davis, Patterson, Lafrenz, Finley, Nowitski are not either 1) phenomenal athletes, or 2) phenomenal athletes for their size. Of the better players in the West their are a few who are maybe only average to above average in athleticism at this stage in their careers--Peja, Nash, Stockton, Vlade, Malone, Wally, and S. Smith. And I would still take the best athletes like Kobe or Garnett over any of that latter group. In short there are a whole lot more elite players who are great athletes (at least for their size) with at least average court sense than average athletes with great court sense. You can take your "Larry Bird", I'll take a MJ or Hakeem and beat you. I also think your sense of an "athlete" is way more limited than mine. I include body control, hand eye coordination, 1st step quickness as part of being an athlete--all of which Cato doesn't stack up athletically as the players you compare him too. Again, if you look at the combination of of length, strength, quickness, body control, coordination, etc, of our big people, we are probably lowest in the entire WC. That is our primary reason our defense sucks so bad and IMO is our most fundemental reason for our losing season.
1) The conversation deals with front court players, your list needs to be depleted of Kobe, Christie, Wells, Anderson, Finley and MJ. Unless you want to include Cat and Steve when talking about the Rockets team athleticism. 2) You have chosen Hakeem as your standard. D-Rob more athletic when both were in their prime? No? Why would he be considered so athletic now? 3) Garnett is a freak of nature and I hope your not trying to tell me Woods and Butler are now or will ever be in his category. 4) Duncan - we'll have to share this one as he is also a fundamentally smart player and would be a team asset even with lesser physical skills. 5) Shaq's atleticism is not available at #5 this year. So now your list consists of Webber, Wallace, Kirilenko, Davis, Patterson, LaFrentz, & Nowitski. And your criteria is - "a combination of of length, strength, quickness, body control, coordination". Convince me that Chis Webber is stronger or quicker than KT. Convince me that LaFrentz is longer, stronger, and quicker than Cato. Convince me that Kirilenko (except for blocks) would have better numbers than Langhi if Langhi played for the Jazz. Convince me that Ruben Patterson can post up KT succesfully. Convince me that EG is less athletic than Nowitski. The qualities which you mention are important for sure, but they are hardly a guarantee of success. The Rockets defense is pitiful not because it is lacking in "length, strength, quickness, body control, & coordination". It is pitiful because the majority of players lack the mental ability (or desire) to learn team defense which is a matter of learning rotations. Unfortunately, team defensive rotations aren't nearly as exciting as a high-flying slam dunk and get overlooked.
OK, I have no problem eliminating backcourt players because it is our front court players that are the problem. No way was D-Rob more athletic than Hakeem (at least in a broad definition of athletic). This is no knock on D-Rob, he certainly is among the next group of athletic centers to ever play. However, Hakeem was stronger (at least in the lower body), quicker reaction time (Hakeem could cover guards when he was young on quickness alone, I have never seen another center who could do this), and had phenomenal body control. Except maybe Wilt, I don't know if their ever was a more natural and athletically gifted center (or perhaps player) than Hakeem. I know almost nothing about Woods. I don't compare Butler to KG, I think Pierce or Finley are better yardsticks for him though. I have argued if we can't integrate a guy like Finley in our team as a SF we might as well blow the team up anyway. Agreed, he would be good with less athleticsm--maybe Brad Daughtery good, but it is his combination of excellent athleticism for his size and mental approach that make him among the best playing right now. I think when you saw him recovering from injury it is apparent his athelticism is a big part of his excellence though. True, but nor is there a Larry Bird either. He is about as much of a rare freak just in a different way. Those next LB's, you know, the Ferry's, Laettner's and Van Horn's don't have that good of a track record either. Do I really need to convince you Webber is longer, quicker, more coordinated, or by most any other criteria (perhaps not bench press, that might be about it) more athletic than KT? I am the first to admit being only excellent in a few athletic dimensions isn't enough to make a good player, Cato seems to be an odd bird here. But if Cato was a little bit more dedicated and had a little but better body control and hand eye coordination wouldn't you think he would be a keeper? LaFrenz is still a pretty good athlete in most all departments even if he isn't phenomenal in any 1 area. I hope the Jazz share your view about Langhi, maybe we can squeeze Kirilenko plus their pick for good ole Dan. Ruben is a 7th or 8th man, but he is certainly a better wing defender than anyone we have. I wouldn't trade KT for him nontheless. EG may end up being a better athlete than Dirk, that is why we consider him our 2nd most valuable commodity. We certainly didn't trade 3 draft picks for him because of his court sense or outside shot. It is easier to improve court sense and even shooting than it is to improve a players athleticism.
Actually, Langhi is an unrestricted FA and not available for trading. I keep having this recurring bad thought that he is going to windup on a team that gets him the ball in a good shooting position and in a good rhythm and he burns the Rockets some day. I guess it's a moot point because it does not look like Dunleavy is leaving Duke. I can live with Butler or Woods.
has any one noticed pippen sucked for the last 4 seasons it may have nothing to do with our offense or portlands offense shandon has not played well after leaving our offense I guess it wasnt chemistry just they suck period I dont believe its the offense triangle offense and stockton has made players look better then they actually are
