Why does everyone believe Ron Artest has good defense (now)?

Disagree. He is still very good defensively. Stat guru Hollinger still ranks him highly.

The Rockets wouldn't have tried to sign him for his offense. Neither would the Lakers.

 

I have not resigned myself to anything apart from actual points. You are making vague references to players without actually substantiating anything. I'm a junior in college, and I know all about John Stockton. He was CLEARLY one of the absolute best defenders at the PG position of all time. Iverson isn't even in crack the top 10 steal leaders of all time. What the hell are you talking about? Stockton has well over 1000 more steals than Iverson.

Stockton is a 5 time all defensive second team and by far the best thief in the history of basketball and you're diminishing his achievements based on the assumption that you know better than a panel of actual NBA coaches.

You're a joke. None of your points hold up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny...you're literally MAKING **** up and acting as if it's substantiated by on-court performance, accolades, or results.

NBA coaches > You.

beer farts > you.

 

WE all thought we were getting a DPOY when we traded for him 1 year ago; he still made the All-NBA defensive 2nd team this year; why would you expect general sportscasters who watched perhaps 6 Rockets games the entire year, including the playoffs, and 0 Sacramento games the past 3 years, to think anything different?

I'm rather interested to see how the referees act with Artest on the Lakers; after seeing our new wing Ariza be allowed to commit 2nd degree assault on Turkoglu in the finals, I have to imagine that Ron-Ron will now be allowed to grab the jersey of the offensive player, throw the 'bows, and handcheck like it was 1994, since he's now playing for Kobe's team.

Artest is very good at defending certain kinds of players; in particular, I think he matches up well with LeBron James, Paul Pierce and Carmelo Anthony; guys you need a lot of strength to deal with. It's really the same as his jumpshot; you let him take a dribble left, and he's gonna shoot a high percentage, you make him go right, he might miss the basket by 3 feet. You let him defend to his strengths (which he can do with Kobe by his side), he'll look like a 1st team defender. You put him on Manu or Brandon Roy, he's going to look washed up.

 

LOL. Well your age would certainly explain your idiocy, so I'll be nice. Please pray tell how you would 'know all about John Stockton' when you were presumably 14 the year he retired? You have either been reviewing game film in your down time (unlikely) or are clinging to irrelevant statistics in place of actual observation. Obviously, the latter in your case. I'm seriously not going to waste my time arguing with someone who hasn't even watched one of the principles in question play. LOL.

I realize you're just a junior in college, but I would have assumed you had taken a basic entry level mathematics course by now. You want to know why Iverson is relevant to this dicussion? He has averaged the exact same number of steals per game in his career as Stockton. Both are at 2.2 (Stockton career stats ; Iverson career stats ). Hello, obviously Stockton would have a greater total - he had a much longer career and was far more durable.

So please, tell me, is Allen Iverson a great defender? Using your flawed logic, you're damn right he is. Unless your committed to that claim, your entire pathetic argument has been destroyed.

I don't know what's more humorous, the fact that you continue pushing this 'steals as indicative of defensive ability' argument or that you're somehow oblivious to the popular opinion that the defensive team awards are considered one of the biggest jokes in sports. It's ok, you'll learn.

The irony in this statement couldn't be thicker from someone who admittedly hadn't yet reached puberty during John Stockton's prime yet is convinced of his claim of his defensive prowess based on flawed statistical reasoning. I wish I was making this up...

Do you even know what you're typing? Why wouldn't a claim be substantiated by on-court performance? Do you even know what the term 'accolade' means? It is you who are touting the accolades. Seriously, I don't have time to educate you on the English language as well. You're in way over your head.

This shtick wasn't clever or witty the first 5 variations of it that you used. I don't know why you would assume that would change.

Seriously, sit this discussion out. Hone your skills on the espn boards and then come back. I don't have the patience to educate you in math, logic, and NBA players you didn't watch.

 

I think he is good situationally, and in certain matchups, but he can no longer stay in front of good wings like Roy and Kobe...he is just too slow footed.

DD

 

Not many people can. Battier is one of the few. And people wan't to trade him for freakin Rudy?

 

Well if you sign Ariza you don't need both him and Battier.

DD

 

ROFL @ your long-winded explanation of nothing.

First. Steals are statistical result of good defense. It's not the ONLY reason a person is a good defender, but is also indicative of playing good defense.

Not ONLY was Stockton the best all around ball hawk on earth, but he clearly deserved all of the defensive recognition he got. His accolades, hardware, or whatever you want to call the awards bestowed upon the man for his excellent defense at his position all speak bounds. The man was amongst the absolute top 2-3 in the entire NBA as a defender at his position on 5 separate campaigns. He was an excellent defender and you have provided absolutely not actual evidence to substantiate a claim that he isn't.

Panels of coaches bestowed upon him an All Defense selection 5 times.

You know what? Those coaches > You. It's not even close.

You have provided NOTHING. You have only said "Ron isn't good at defense anymore" will providing aboslutel NOTHING to substantiate your claim.

A subjective reference to his foot speed is not substantiating such an incredibly dense position. The fact that you think you have proven one thing against Stockton or Artest is so beyond laughable it's nearing disgusting at this point.



Basically some internet message board troll thinks Artest isn't great on D anymore so we should all believe it because "he isn't as fast" and "i've watched some games"

we've all watched games you moron

that panel of coaches that said he's second team all defense?...Yeah they watched games too. ROFL @ that being some way to legitimize a complaint against a former Rocket. That's pathetic.

lol keep believing that you figured something out that all of the coaches haven't....you DIDN'T.

you're just a moron on a forum that wants to stand on a soap box and act as if your basketball sensibilities are more highly tuned than others and only you can come to the realization that these professional athletes that are receiving coach accredited recognition CONSISTENTLY do not deserve so...simply because you have watched some games.

Your argument is based completely around subjective thoughts going off in your uninformed brain while watching the Rockets. All the while actual basketball minds (read: COACHES) are hard at work trying to win games, immersing themselves in the association, and collectively deciding which athletes to credit with excellent defense.

You're done.

You have no points. In fact all evidence stands in your face. He's 2nd team all defense and his defensive efficiency is amongst the absolute best on our team. You're just salty and willing to go to greath lengths to say absolutely nothing apart from

"Hey guys i watched some games Ron Artest can't play defense....oh ignore his insane defensive efficiency and his second team all NBA selection...just take my word for it because I've watched some games."

Pathetic.

Stockton couldn't play Defense either. He wasn't elite and didn't deserve to be put on lists with elite defenders.

Unless of course you ASK ACTUAL COACHES hahahahahahahaahhaha

 

and who on this entire message board started watching basketball at 14?

are you kidding me i've been watching basically 82 rockets games a season since I was probably 7. I bet there are many more like me all over clutchfans.

I watched Stockton play A LOT growing up, and it's beyond clear that he was a top defender at his position. Want to know who's with me on that?

panels of NBA coaches.

ROFL. kthx.

 

Based on...what exactly?

People said the same thing when we signed Artest. I'd say the Artest-Battier combo worked out pretty well.

 

Way to completely ignore all of my points and basically regurgitate the same garbage you've been spewing for the past few pages. You really do love circular reasoning, don't you?

First of all, steals aren't indicative of playing good defense. Most come off the ball on the passing lanes. Hence, why the Iverson query, which you have chosen to ignore after being completely owned, was relevant.

Steals don't preclude the presence of great defense, but they aren't necessarily sufficient to indicate good defense. I don't expect you to understand these logical distinctions though.

Secondly, if steals aren't "the ONLY reason a person is a good defender" your entire argument falls apart (notice a trend?). The sole basis of your claim regarding Stockton was in citing his steals statistics. That has been my point, as was demonstrated with Iverson, yet unfortunately you have been unable to grasp that.

okay, this is just getting embarrassing now. it's okay, you didn't watch 90's ball, but some of these statements are downright laughable. ever heard of gary payton? mookie blaylock?

You're basically just regurgitating your earlier claims as premises. Look up circular reasoning. You seem to be very fond of it already.

Sigh. I don't know if you're just being willfully obtuse or if you've been living in a cave but it is absolutely bizarre that you are somehow oblivious to the common perception that the all-defensive teams are one of the biggest jokes in sports. i watched john stockton play - he wasn't one of the best individual defenders at his position. do you seriously think kobe bryant has been one of the 2 best guard defenders in basketball over the past 4 years? seriously? newsflash, the awards are based on name recognition. start a thread asserting that kobe bryant is one of the 2 best guard defenders in the league and i can assure you you will be laughed at on ANY non-laker forum. same for stockton in his day. i know you're young, but you demonstrate the naivete of a high schooler.

It would probably behoove you to atleast read through a thread first before replying. I said: "In fairness, I will add that against the bigger wings such as Lebron and Lamar Odom, he was tremendous. But these types are few and far between. He was obliterated by the O.J. Mayo types which are basically the norm now.

He's just too slow now and what makes matters worse is that his game is predicated on taking risks. He gambles way too much leaving his teammates in bad position and breaking down the entire defense. If I were his trainer, I would be making it my top priority to get him down to his playing weight from his Indiana days (235-240). He is just too big right now for his playing style in that he doesn't even use the added bulk to his advantage offensively."

you're seriously disputing the claim that he isn't as fast? your overall intelligence is in question at this point. aside from the fact that he is visibly slower to any observer, that he has gained almost 30 lbs. since his Indiana days hasn't affected his speed at all? At the least, try and make some sense.

btw, calling me a troll and moron just further demonstrates your overall lack of ability to articulate coherent thoughts. It's really not helping. Don't go into law - you will end up soiling your pants.

I can only just smile at this point at your cluelessness.

complaint? your assumption that my criticism of artest's defense is vested in some bitterness towards his leaving is only reflective of your own apparent inability to separate your emotions from observation.

so naive, it's okay, you will learn.

besides the fact that the iverson comparison that completely went over your head already destroyed your argument, this picture you paint is beyond adorable. so i assume that despite the fact that it is common knowledge that derek jeter's golden glove accolades are one of the biggest jokes in baseball, these are well deserved? i mean, after all, baseball managers "are hard at work trying to win games, immersing themselves in the association, and collectively deciding which athletes to credit with excellent defense." lol. you'll learn soon that hollow rhetoric doesn't serve as a worthy substitute for actual substance.

You mean the same defensive efficiency ratings that determined Carl Landry to be a better defender than Chuck Hayes? It's already been discussed ad-nauseum why those ratings aren't totally reflective of the entire picture but I wouldn't expect a simpleton that cites all-NBA awards and steals statistics as his primary evidence to be able to grasp that.

but i'll humor you regardless using your very own flawed logic.

artest's opponent production was given a 12.2. kobe bryant, a first team all defender, had an opponent production rating of 14.2. obviously, there are other factors at play in impacting this, but utilizing your flawed logic in citing the absolute reliability of both all-defense accolades and the roland ratings, you are committed to completely contradicting yourself. since you're probably not following me, i'll just spell it out for you in easy words: kobe was first-team all defense. artest had a better defensive rating than him. either the ratings aren't entirely reliable or the all-defense awards aren't entirely indicative. or both.

and of course, i haven't even mentioned that vladimir radmonavich has a higher rating than kobe bryant. do i keep going? everyone would agree that dwight howard is a superb defender - marcin gortat has a significantly better ranking than him.

given that you completely ignored my iverson example in analogically destroying your claims, i don't expect you to address this either, but atleast do yourself a favor and read and be edified. it will help you in the future.

this is too ironic coming from the kid who has been regurgitating the same unsubstantive claims for the last 4 or 5 posts.

Good, you're finally learning something. I'm glad to see you asked someone who actually watched 90's basketball.

PS: the various forms of douchisms which you continue suffixing at the end of every post are really demonstrating your lack of intelligence. it's really not helping you.

for educational and practice purposes, please adress atleast one of my claims. otherwise, i don't see the point in me even continuing to respond to this juvenile nonsense. thanks in advance.

 

can't believe i overlooked this little gem. john stockton's last all-defense selection was in the 1996-1997 season. as you are admittedly a junior in college, assuming you are 20, you were 8 years old at the time of stockton's last all-defense selection.

his first selection was in 1988-1989 when you were presumably a fetus.

wow, how precociously observant of you to have recognized john stockton's defensive prowess at the young age of 8. i am very impressed. LOL.

considering the clarity that you are just lying at this point and continuously refuse to address my points regurgitating the same claims repeatedly, combined with the fact that i'm starting to feel a bit guilty now for this clubbing of a baby seal, i will have to remove myself from this discussion.

 

Not me, the team did not win a championship.....that is the only goal.

And I think they beat Portland anyway...and Ron was not so hot in the LA series....in fact, he was pretty bad all playoffs long.

DD

 

Ariza won a ring. That was the goal. I'd say that's pretty good. Proven championship player, doesn't sulk on the bench or argue with the coach when pulled...

 

Boo, don't stop! This is one of the most entertaining beatdowns I've seen in a while. Clyde would approve.

 

Gosh, cabbage... serious ownage goin' down!

 

a 6-time championship player would not necessaritly agree with you on this.

Scottie Pippen

 

Junior in college you say? In a sad state is the American education system.

 

Ariza doesn't sulk or whine. If Pippen thinks so, that's just strange. Not really sure what Pippen has to do with this.

 

the dizzying height of ignorance, baseless claims build upon baseless claims.

Shaq has had more recognition than Kobe, Garnett and way more than Bruce Bowen. yet, Shaq has never been name to the all-defensive team, while the other 3 had been name multiple times,

blowing your baseless claim out of water.​

over the last 6 years, nobody has been accorded better name recognition than LeBron, who was not selected to the all-defensive team in his first 5 years. During this past season, LBJ improved his defense immensely and consistently. his stellar defense was recognized, and selected to the all-defensive team for the first time.

another eg that blows your baseless claim out of water​