mutilation of female genetalia is more of an African cultural practice, it has nothing to do with Islam and is not allowed in Saudi as far as I know. I understand the hand mutilation seems 'extreme' in nature as a punishment, but another argument would be that it's such a strong deterrant that has kept crime rates extremely low in the Kingdom. So just offering up a utilitarian argument for the sake of debate.
I'm pretty sure 'more of an african cultural practice' is inaccurate. FGM happens a LOT in Muslim countries, there are even specific hadiths referring to the practice (although to be fair it is an ongoing debate within Islam). It ALSO happens in animist/christian/muslim mix cultures in africa. FGC (female genital cutting) in a variety of its forms is practiced in Middle Eastern countries (the two Yemens, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, and Southern Algeria). In Africa it is practiced in the majority of the continent including Kenya, Nigeria, Mali, Upper Volta, Ivory Coast, Egypt, Mozambique, and Sudan.
each country has its own ways of dealing with criminals, while you guys may think cutting somoenes hands off for major theft is a bad thing, they may think that you guys electrocuting someone is totally inhumane... and with female mutilation. it is not a practice that is compuslory in islam, it is practiced in middle eastern cultures, and hey, i can argue that the girls here get their ****s pierced, and thats mutilation just as welll. and honor killings are Forbidden in the quran, and all countries(islamic) as far as i know...
right ,it does occur in islamic societies as well, but its many times an OPINION of a person to get thier thing circumsized(i think thts the right word), again, can be compared to all those freaks nowadays getting pierced errywhere down there.
DD... i have lived in Saudi for 3 years and in Libya 4 years. i agree with you that the Saudi's have not really done anything with their oil...they are fools...however you have to realize that the Saudi government is the U.S's puppet....i know you don't see it while sitting in Texas but EVERYONE in Saudi knows it....its almost a fact over there.... and as for Libya...well it has a reason why it has'nt been able to do anything with its oil....once again its the U.S that has forced it to be where it is....when Ghudafi had taken over from King Idris he was supported by the majority of the public(the U.S intelligence knew this)...however the problem was Ghudafi nationalized the oil companies and was a socialist....the U.S oil companies went back crying foul play... basically you had the U.S bomb Ghudafi's compound kiling his daughter...so in revenge he bombed a plane....my parents were in Libya when the U.S bombed Libya and trust me their intelligence is spectacular....they bombed a gas station that had closed down JUST a few days earlier...and also put bullet holes all over a buildings that were going to occupied in a couple of days....that is amazing....to have that knowledge. well i hope you have understood that the U.S has a lot on its plate...it is part of the reason why there is terrorism in this world...you don't screw around with another countries ability to rule itself and not get a negative response...
dude, what else can saudi have done iwth its oil is my question to you? have you ever seen the amount of people they take care of during ramadhan and hajj season, none of that comes from the pilgrims or the ppl living there. its all courtesy of thte kingdom.
Vince, In no way am I saying we are not copable partners in this problem, absolutely we are, our meddling has certrainly had an affect. However, it is completely magnified to a level of blame by inefficient governments to mask their own shortfalls. Blame the big bad US, it is their fault that you have no food to feed your children.....all the while the leaders are building massive palaces and taking private jets on expensive shopping trips to the UK. If those governments put money into their own countries infastructures instead of lining their own pockets and bring the standard of living up for all of it's people the terrorism problem would vastly decrease. Just giving away healthcare etc, is not enough, it does not produce a feeling of self worth....people need to feel they are working towards a better life....and not one that they get when they die, but a tangible one they can have while they live. DD
Wait wait, piercing on t!ts and other parts of female/male bodies are practiced voluntarily in the Western society, however FGM in the said regions is forced, and often to the underaged, who may not be able to make sound judgement. Apple and organge, no comparison here, in my strong opinion.
i doubt highly, that any oil rich country has really faulted the USA for lack of food for children... i would like to see daleel (proof) on that. And its not like any american or other western officials incharge ever take "long working vacations" or travel in their own private jumbo jets, and its not like these do it on the oil right, but they use the taxpayers money... so its pretty hypocrytical to judge the arabs on their practice of using their countries wealth a little to entertain themselves, and then find no faults in other governments doing the same.
Uh, no. It cannot be compared to someone getting their ****oris pierced. That is a terrible comparison. Most of these girls are 5 to 12 at most and in NO position to decide such a thing. In fact, most of them are physically restrained. To assert that they WANT to do it is to completely ignore the societal bindings put on women in patriarchal systems. Here's an account - "I was genitally mutilated at the age of ten. I was told by my late grandmother that they were taking me down to the river to perform a certain ceremony, and afterwards I would be given a lot of food to eat. As an innocent child, I was led like a sheep to be slaughtered. Once I entered the secret bush, I was taken to a very dark room and undressed. I was blindfolded and stripped naked. I was then carried by two strong women to the site for the operation. I was forced to lie flat on my back by four strong women, two holding tight to each leg. Another woman sat on my chest to prevent my upper body from moving. A piece of cloth was forced in my mouth to stop me screaming. I was then shaved. When the operation began, I put up a big fight. The pain was terrible and unbearable. During this fight, I was badly cut and lost blood. All those who took part in the operation were half-drunk with alcohol. Others were dancing and singing, and worst of all, had stripped naked. I was genitally mutilated with a blunt penknife. After the operation, no one was allowed to aid me to walk. The stuff they put on my wound stank and was painful. These were terrible times for me. Each time I wanted to urinate, I was forced to stand upright. The urine would spread over the wound and would cause fresh pain all over again. Sometimes I had to force myself not to urinate for fear of the terrible pain. I was not given any anaesthetic in the operation to reduce my pain, nor any antibiotics to fight against infection. Afterwards, I haemorrhaged and became anaemic. This was attributed to witchcraft. I suffered for a long time from acute vaginal infections." A few more notes: "It is mostly done in unsanitary conditions in which a midwife uses unclean sharp instruments such as razor blades, scissors, kitchen knives, and pieces of glass. These instruments are frequently used on several girls in succession and are rarely cleaned, causing the transmission of a variety of viruses such as the HIV virus, and other infections. Antiseptic techniques and anesthesia are generally not used, or for that matter, heard of. This is akin to a doctor who uses the same surgical instrument on a number of women at the same time without cleaning any of them."
No doubt, whomever said that was OK? My point is that many of the ME Oil countries are keeping their populace poor and uneducated, and THIS IS THE BIGGEST reason that terrorism has developed. People are simply not getting enough information to make a sound decision, too much filtering. Look at Iran, they are having a devil of a time stopping the youth over there because of the internet and free flowing information. People can see that there is more to life than their own fish bowl....and YES, that does include the good ole USA. DD
link?? and this is talking about some sort of person being almost sexually harrassed. female circumsiccion if done, should be done in a hospital with sanitary conditions. (imo it shouldn't be done) but someppl like it like that
there isnt any filtering that goes on. People get all the news that you guys get. yes there are some filters on p*rn and stuff on the internet, but that can be understood. Also many terrorists sites are also banned/blocked. The governments in many middle eastern countries arent forcing education on everyone, which is the biggest problem, YES. but they arent imo keeping anyone in the dark on purpose or due to a lack of funds.
I lived in Saudi Arabia for awhile too and it seemed like they've done a lot with their oil. Building a highway system, world class health care centers, free health care, housing and free college. That certainly seems to me like they did something with their oil money. We can debate whether its enough but considering in the US we don't provide health care or free college I'm not sure as Americans we can claim that the Saudis haven't done anything when interms of education and health the Saudi government per capita has given much more to its citizens than our government has.
That seems a rather self-serving statement since our government doesn't give health care and also in regard to producing a feeling of self worth what is the cost of doing that? Are you saying that the Saudi government should be putting their money into giving out small business grants or something? Materially the Saudi government has given their citizens possibly more than any other country, health care, housing, education, and even stipends. Whether they've given them hope or spiritual enlightenment is another question altogether and not one that can be addressed through oil wealth. The issue though of whether the Saudis have used their oil wealth to materially better their citizens IMO is undebatable considering that prior to oil development Arabia was very poor with low life span and quality of life.
So if they are taking care of their citizens what's the problem? Doesn't seem to conform with the 'terrorists are poor downtrodden illtreated' thesis.
poverty is not a problem in Saudi.. ...most of the terrorist were middle class citizens??? so what does that say about poverty being a reason for terror???... i don't know the exact reason for terrorism...but a huge role that has played is the U.S's desire to control the governments of that region....every hegemon has acted like this before....why would'nt this one?..and i don't blame them...its only natural for the powerful to control the weak. adeelsiddiqui...you gotta be kidding me....what else could they have done??.... built some sort of industry along with Oil.... it HAD the advantage most countries didn't.....i don't think you understand the amount of money the kingdom HAD...(atleast U.A.E is building a tourism industry...and doing a great job) back in the 70's many nations in that region were aiming to create an indigenous industrial base....what is called the import substituting industrialization strategy...well guess what...they didn’t even try... also unlike most countries Saudi's did not need to borrow (which is why this strategy failed in the first place for those other countries that didn’t have a commodity like oil)....they could have easily imported intellectual capital to make it a success...man they could have done so much more... you are right....but allocating your money towards having highway systems (i lived in Dharhan where they have a highway with 5 lanes!!!....when they don't even need three lanes...talk about being effecient ...providing an easy life to your people is not supposed to be the governments duty...it might sound all nice but it does'nt work.....
Terrorism predates our being the sole superpower so I'm not sure how valid this claim is. In addition, the terrorists are not just saying 'leave us alone,' they've declared war on modernity itself.
OK, so I see many of you have a socialist attitude of what the Saudis should do. Let's just say that the Saudis had back in the late 1980s and early 90s tons of social programs that provided a high standard of living for their people: free healthcare (including for foreigners! ), a very good public school system (although majority of Saudi kids, sadly, aren't serious about school), heavily-subsidized lifestyle (from oil prices to everything else), etc. In short, while they have many shortfalls (as if any other country in the world doesn't) the Saudi government -- despite its corruption and extravagance -- has done a lot more with their oil money for their citizens than the United States has done with tax-money for its citizens; this is also true of Canada and some Scandanavian countries. Heck, even Saddam earlier on in his tenure undertook a massive modernization of Iraq that paid off big time for his people, until of course he ruined it all and started a war of mass destruction with Iran, then invaded Kuwait, and the rest was history. Oh, btw, don't forget that the Saudis don't have an income tax or sales tax system (at least when I lived there they didn't), so that's not really a major source of revenue.
