Why do people say fast paced teams can't succeed in the playoffs?

With Harden, I think we finally get those calls at the end of the game more times than not. stern's minions have to respect the beard.:grin:

jesus freaking christ on a potato chip, looking back at those suns teams it is amazing that they didn't win at least one trophy. they had the big four, before divas were assembling the 'big three'.

 

There a saying that defense wins championships
I believe that holds true in other sports too
Don't get me wrong
Having strong offensive is important but defensive doesn't get recognized as winning shots seem to get all the glory

 

Because it's not the recipe for Championship success. Over the past 3 decades, have you seen a fast pace team win a championship?

Now, how many half court teams that play great defense? Almost every year...

 

Running teams can't win in the post season. The playoffs are slower paced and there's plenty of time for adjustment and match ups. Running can be taken away quite easily in a 7 game series. By not going for the offensive rebound and purposely putting 2-3 guys back, a team can stop running and turn it to a halfcourt grind. The denver nuggets back in the day, phoenix suns of recent all failed miserabley. Even the old time lakers admitted to running three quarters and playing halfcourt in the fourth. Defense and halfcourt win championships! Good thing is that I believe the rockets can do very well in halfcourt if they want to.

 

Not in Mchale's repertoir atm. Not sure if it's because all the youth and inexperience demands an initial simplistic, spread the floor/pnr approach (at first), or because he just prefers that style of play and thinks it's most effective.

 

It gets harder since defense is a lot more tight in the playoffs, but it does not mean they can't succeed.

 

To be fair, the Suns went deep into the play offs for multiple seasons and they did reach the WCF in 2005. They were underdogs going into the play offs in 2005, so it's hard to argue that it was exclusively pace that cost them a trip to the Finals.

I think what we need to keep in mind is that a good offense is only 1/2 of the equation, whether it is half court, or transition offense.

A team still needs good defensive play. Even at their best, the Suns were an average defensive team. It was their fast paced offense that allowed them to remain competitive.

As for a 7 game series, we have to remember that the effectiveness of transition offense depends not only on the desire to run the court, but also the ability of both teams to maintain a high pace.

When two teams are athletically similar in speed, then transition defense becomes significant. When one team is significantly faster, then the desire to defend in transition is NOT sufficient.

48 minutes is a darn long time, and if your opposing team runs faster, and has younger legs, you can WANT to get back in Transition all you want, but at some point your legs run out and the younger team will run all over you.

The problem is I think people are conflating two intertwined issues.

Fast teams tend to be younger, so they gain in terms of athleticism and endurance.

However, Young teams lack the experience of older teams, so some of that athleticism is offset by the lack of experience.

As such, younger teams tend to be less skilled in Defense. Fewer years under the same coach, in the same system, with the same team mates, and less experience in the NBA playing their positions, learning individual defense and familiarizing themselves with their defensive sets.

Additionally, there is a prevailing notion that fast pace = poor defense. This is true in the sense that younger teams lack experience, however it does not mean that an athletic team can NOT win a championship.

Here's an interesting analysis from 82games.

http://www.82games.com/levbot.htm

One final note. We have to remember that the proportion of fast paced teams is actually fairly low, so it doesn't serve as a good representative sample size.

Similarly, we should also remember that the number of ways a team can be eliminated from a play off run, or ANY series are myriad. The number of teams that actually reach the Finals is a very small group, and I think it would be a mistake to place too much into the idea that it is a function of pace, versus a function of coaching (poor defensive or offensive coaching for example), or even just a lack of talent.

Fundamentally, if you boil it down to it's most logical simplicity, good offense + good defense = good shot at a deep play off run and/or championship.

If you have average offense OR average defense, your chances go way down, even if you are Elite in ONE of those categories.

Finally, the idea that "defense" wins championships is great in principle, but looking back at previous play offs and championships, it is just as often great or poor offensive play that tilts the games. One team getting hot at the right time, accumulation of injuries, and sometimes just plain luck in getting a good or bad call.

As observers, we like to look at the play offs and assume it's the best talent rising to the occasion. We like to point out that specific are playing great, or that they are choking.

More often than we care to admit, they just are in or out of rhythm at the wrong time, or one team is particularly stacked over another.

The Spurs have won 4 championships in the last 15 years. They're now playing fast paced basketball (3rd fastest in the NBA). Poppovich is considered one of the greatest coaches of all time.

Does anyone really believe that Pops does NOT believe he can win a championship by playing fast paced ball?

Offense is offense. Defense is defense. I personally suspect that the reason a fast paced team has not won a championship recently is simply because the right fast paced team has not shown up yet as opposed to fast pace scoring offense being the root of the problem in and of itself.

 

You can fast break in the playoffs. See showtime and the Celtics. Less dribble. More pass. The Rockets can play this way, but they need to be efficient. Right now, I think we will succeed in the playoffs because we have three guys who have a quicker step to the basket than anyone guarding them. That is hard to stop even when less fouls get called. I like our chances overall, but we may not be top 8 yet.

 

Think: Horry's hip.

 

It's not that fast paced teams can't succeed in the playoffs. It's that fast paced teams usually lack a legit post threat to get the job done. Not just offensively but defensively as well.

You look at the Miami Heat last year and the way LeBron has elevated his game to the next level and it's because he's developed a better post game. The Heat were almost eliminated but Lebron carried the team in game 5 against the Celtics and he mostly did it from the post or easy buckets in the paint. When Chris Bosh came back in that series the complexion changed as well because he's a threat from the post area (whether you want to admit it or not).

Also, remember those run and gun Warriors in 2007 that made history and shocked the world as the #8 seed beating the #1 seed Mavs? You know.. The team that would start 3 Guards and Captain Jack at the 4 and Al Harrington at the 5? They had success against the Mavs because the Mavs didn't have a post presence at the time offensively or defensively.

Unfortunately, that same lack of post presence is what caught up against them in the next round when they faced a much bigger team that could get easy buckets and stops in the paint. Back at that time Boozer was a legit 20/10 guy getting MVP consideration and taking Yao to the back of the woodshed plus the size of Okur and Millsap along with AK47 being a defensive disrupter was too much.

Good post presence (Randolph/Gasol) is why the Grizzles were 1 game away from going to the Western conference finals 2 years ago and would have gone further had Randolph been healthy last year and why they're probably going to be the team nobody wants to face again this year in the playoffs.

The same reason why the Mavs won their Chip 2 years ago when they had Chandler and Haywood shutting down the paint. And why the Spurs have been contenders for over a decade.

The same reason why Morey was willing to experiment a Gasol/Nene frontcourt combo. It's not that fast paced teams can't succeed in the playoffs ... fast paced teams usually play fast paced because they lack the post presence. Which should remind you when Yao and Deke went down in our last playoff run we had to play fast paced and had success starting Brooks and Lowry in the back court against the Lakers but ultimately their size and talent killed us but mostly SIZE (post presence).

 

Until we get a legit post threat at the 4 we are fools gold/built for the regular season.

 

What durvasa said.

Championship teams are good at many things. One dimensional teams don't win it all because there are always ways to beat a certain style. You have to be able to beat your opponent with more than one way. The Suns were not just fast. They were also good at half-court offense.

The Rockets right now is a running team by necessity because our half-court offense sucks.

 

The analogy I like to use is:

Imagine taking a Maserati and driving it off road...you just dont do that...

the playoffs are a grind, and teams arent just getting blown out like before...The FTs we get now wont be called as much...There is going to be less airspace when raising up for jumpshots...and the pressure of making a long distance jumper is much higher...game planing is more effecient when you play against the same team for a max of 7 games...you know player tendencies and how to exploit them...Sure we could get a couple of games...but eventually a high scoring team gets shut down when relegated to just being a jump shooting team...ie. see OKC last year...OKC got far enough without a true low post threat...they are a jumpshooting team, and other than KD...their shooters can be on one night and off another...On the other hand, look at what Miami did last year...Lebron's ability to draw to draw a double in the post allowed him to not only score himself, but got his teammates open looks in the playoffs...and open jumpers are absolutely essential in the playoffs...You are not going to always blow past your defender, bc the help defense is much more efficient. Thats how the Celtics beat Lebron when he was with the Cavs...Thats how Dallas bested Miami...And thats how our Rockets destroyed ORL in 95

 

The Lakers and Celtics pace during their heyday weren't that great, but their Offensive Rating was among the best. They were efficient offenses that scored more per possession than just about anybody. Besides, when it comes to pace, I think most teams in any given season are lumped in with one another. Not to mention there have been both low and high pace teams with great regular seasons and postseasons.

 

For those who say fast paced teams don't win, think 1980s lakers, early 1970s lakers, 2003 Detroit Pistons.

 

It is more than just that. The Rockets want to run to wear down other team. They want to be better in half court. Don't expect them to try to slow down when they get more efficient.

 

Larry Brown and Billups are at their best in a slow half court offense.

 

A bit of both? Morey and Sampson have mentioned how Lin struggles in a half court setting.

 

The mid 80's Lakers were middle-of-the-pack in terms of Pace. They just knew how to run a break like no other team. Same with the Celtics of those years. They both had among the best Offensive and Defensive Ratings in the league which basically meant they were efficient as hell on offense and their defenses made you work. I don't remember those Pistons of 2003 being anything special in terms of Pace, either. Not sure about the 70's Lakers - never watched them until 1979'ish and I don't remember anything but the Rockets of that era. lol.