Except that we don't know what is God's mind. What you are saying is that God has a plan so praying makes no sense. The problem is that we don't know what that plan is. This is like saying I know a bunt single will result eventually in that batter scoring. At that point what does it matter if the batter bunts or not but if the batter doesn't bunt then the run actually won't score. So even if God knows whether a prayer will or not be accounted for we don't know that. I actually think it is the opposite. If God can't change his mind for his creation then he technically isn't God since he isn't powerful enough to alter his creation. If God is all powerful then he has the power to alter creation. As I said before I don't think whether prayer works or not is the issue. I doubt you can in any way prove definitively that prayer works. It is about psychology and symbolism but if we accept that there is an omnipotent God that we prayer too then it is certainly within the power of that being to alter anything it wants.
*sigh* Okay, here it is in simple terms: Bob has cancer. Bill prays for Bob, saying "Dear God, please save Bob." There are only two possible outcomes: 1. God has decided that Bob will die from cancer, in which case Bill's prayer makes no difference. 2. God has decided that Bob will NOT die from cancer, in which case Bill's prayer makes no difference. Whether or not we know the predetermined outcome makes no difference: it's still predetermined. I hear folks trying to say that God hasn't made up/can change his mind, but that seems completely contrary to the concept of omniscient omnipresent omnipotence.
From a general sense, you're right on the fact that we are all going to die so saving from cancer is only a temporary solution. But there is the 3 option which exists. Say Bob is not saved and that the realization that he is going to die will lead him to salvation - turning his life over to the Lord. That is God's desire but it is Bob's choice. MANY times our prayers don't line up with God's will. They are driven by our own desires. Glorifying God should be the foundation of our prayers. If we start with that as a building block, I don't think we'll end up with so many "can I have ice cream for dinner" prays. But all prayers don't have to be for big things either. It's ok to take everything to the Lord in prayer and there is no thing too small. He'd rather you ask him what color socks should you wear, then not talk to him at all.
What about if God's plan is "Bob won't die of cancer IF people pray for him, but if no one cares about him enough to ask for My intervention, he will die from cancer." ? In other words, he imposes the people's free will to create His decision.
Except that would be contradictory to the idea of omnipotence as then God doesn't have the ability to change his mind and isn't all powerful.
That's really not a third option: it's just a variant of option 1. And, remember: Bill prayed for Bob to recover, not to be saved. And the prayer for Bob to recover from cancer was still useless, because God had already decided Bob was a goner. Go back and read the original question: The question wasn't "are we praying correctly?" The question was (paraphrased) "When we pray for someone, does it really make a lick of difference?" And so far, no one has given me a clear answer that says it does. I really do appreciate the folks who are trying to discuss the meaning, method, and mentality of prayer, but that's not the question at hand. We're talking about whether prayer actually changes the course of events, or whether it is useless wheel-spinning in the face of "God's plan".
First off, that's a pretty awful thing to consider: "pray for this guy, or I'm gonna let him die of cancer"? I really hope that's not the case, because that would make God a bit of an extortionist. Secondly, isn't His decision already made? If God is master of everyone and everything, space, time, the universe, all of creation, etc. doesn't He already know what we'll choose? Doesn't He already know whether or not Bob's friends will pray? And so, doesn't He already know that Bob's going to die or recover? And doesn't that mean the prayer is not going to change anything?
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Except wouldn't the prayers for Bob also be something that God knows so those prayers are a necessary part of his plan? I stick by my original point but I think a supreme being is something whose motivations methods are beyond our understanding so I don't think we can handcuff it by tying it down with its omniscience. If prayer actually works it is likely beyond our comprehension how or why.
Frankly yes. I myself don't believe in a personified God and I don't believe in the power of prayer beyond a psychological comfort but if we accept the idea of an omniscient omnipotent God that sort of being is going to be inherently beyond human understanding.
You are basically holding onto two possibilities: 1) God can't change His mind >> indicating an imperfect God. 2) God does change His mind >> indicating an imperfect plan. But you are neglecting what we are telling you. What we are telling you is that God CAN change His mind, but he won't. That's the only possible answer IMO. Good discussion, thanks for the thread.
Are you claiming to know the mind of God? Agreed very interesting and I a nice break from the election debates.
Yes it clearly makes a difference. It changes the course of events. God does not answer every prayer but He does answer effective prayer. God does not predetermine how someone will die, unless He has a very good reason to do so. He does have the power to take life and give life. Just because God is all powerful does not mean He uses such power in ways that are not consistent with His perfect character- love, mercy, justice, compassion, patience, truth, impartiality etc God does not violate His moral character with the use of His power.
So, when Bill prayer for Bob to recover from cancer, that wasn't an effective prayer and was, thus, useless. Right? No offense, rhester, but that's the second time you've made that statement (with almost the exact same wording) and it still makes no sense. It's like saying "I don't eat ice cream, except when I feel like eating ice cream". So...you DO eat ice cream. If He's perfect, then why did the course of His plan need changing?
Although I used the terminology earlier, I don't believe God has a mind or any blatant humanistic characteristics. Your question also kind of negates your faith in His existence, right? Just to finish up, I personally think this topic is so beyond our capacity to understand that we might as well live like it doesn't exist, even if we might think it does. Praying is a good thing, but I'm sure God will do what is supposed to happen and we usually have no idea what is best for us in the grand scheme of the universe. I think praying is between your soul and God, and just like no one can intervene in that relationship, similarly I believe dragging someone into it is a bit inappropriate.
To your points: 1. If God didn't answer the prayer the way Bill wanted it wasn't effective, correct- so there are conditions that must be met before God will answer a prayer. 2. No, it is not about eating ice cream. It saying that God doesnot predetermine a person's choices and the impact choices have on how long someone lives. God did not select the people who boarded the Titanic. I don't think I can be any clearer, what you should have said is I hope I live longer because I don't eat ice cream everyday on top of a dozen donuts washing it all down with a pint of bourbon. Because those kind of choices have more impact on how long you live than God does. 3. God's plan is like a blueprint or a roadmap to follow. It doesn't need to be changed but if you don't follow the directions you might need to change to accomplish God's will. You are using circular reasoning- God will's all things, therefore His will is done, therefore what happens is God's will. This is not anything close to the bible's view. God's will is rarely done on earth.
