The whole point of this thread is stupid, the people in the Middle East are not together on anything, they hate each other, they hate their Kings, they hate their lot in life, and a lot of times their governments divert focus from their own greediness to try to place blame on the USA. You know what should have been an option in this poll? Ignorance That is the only sincere and real answer. DD
Again, if you had watched or listened to the GOP debate on CNN the other night the poll question would make a ton of sense. There wasn't any "lets thoughtfully inspect every aspect of why they do" A question was raised between Paul and Santorum about the middle east. Paul factually stated that Bin Laden has said the attacks were because of occupation on their holy lands, the killing of their people ect ect. Santorum argued that we were attacked simply because they were jealous of American freedom. I posted a poll to see if the BBS agreed with any of their positions. If you didn't understand where the question was coming from or didn't like the two options, move on. Simple as that.
You are right to a certain degree the blame lies on those that are running things there. But, when you have these greedy rulers getting support from the West it adds fuel to the fire. It's a lot more complicated than what the poll is trying to simplify the anger into. Also "they hate our freedoms" is not even close to being a factor, I have no idea how people actually buy into that one.
Why bring a stupid question, with ignorant responses onto the board? Maybe you could have asked if anyone agreed with their positions.....there is much more to the Middle East and the USA. The world is shrinking and this is a culture clash, has happened throughout history until we are all one big culture...... The USA is winning, one KFC and McDonalds at a time. DD
True, but some of their LEADERSHIP hates our freedoms...lol..... But I would surmise that the general populace would enjoy having the same freedoms, and is more envious of them than hateful. DD
I discussed this with a friend once, how the rest of the world seems to love our culture. You can go anywhere and see the same stuff here, it's disappointing in some ways, but interesting nevertheless. One thing that is interesting is how other cultures pick and choose from our culture and bring incorporate it into theirs. I have a friend in Brazil, and for the most part they watch American movies and tv, wear American clothes, and listen to American music. Likewise in some Middle Eastern cities where one could easily think they're in New York or Chicago.
A dominant cultural narrative is but one of the reasons that drives anti-Americanism, and in the case of the Middle East, is likely to be a marginal factor in determining peoples feelings when it comes to the US. There is no doubt that there is some level of underlying resentment globally when it comes to a perceived hegemonic discourse. But to treat it as the dominant reason is far too convenient. What happens is that many Americans use these types of reasons to abdicate America of any responsibility. "They hate us for our freedoms" or "our culture is more popular than theirs so they despise us" exonerates us of any contribution into the formulation of anti-american attitudes. What makes the claims even more implausible is a very questionable track record over the past half century. The Sykes-Picot agreement and the Marshall Plan were instrumental in fomenting antagonistic attitudes towards western hegemony. Colonization only exacerbated those attitudes, and resulted in the subjection of the majority of the middle east under the political domination of western forces. Post colonialism, we've been wreckless with our unending interventions, the majority of which have been military. Operation Desert Storm, UN Sanctions in Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan War, and Operation Iraqi Freedom are the largest conflicts that come to mind. More recently, Abu Ghraib, Guantanimo, drone attacks, and missionary work being facilitated by (and sometimes conducted by) our military in those same regions are just a few things that come to mind. This discussion isnt about whether or not we were justified in doing any of the above, but rather what motivates anti-americanism in the middle east. If we're being honest about the topic, it behooves us to look in the mirror and ask how we've contributed to those attitudes and how we can begin to curb that tide. That is, if we even care.
The only horse**** is what you're spewing. Saying the Middle East is a tribal region is like saying America is all redneck country and nothing else. It's funny you deny that foreign meddling hasn't contributing to most of the problems in the Middle East. I guess you ignore the fact that after WWI, all of the Ottoman Empire became a giant resource for Western powers. How many partitions happened? How many broken promises were there to Arab people? The reason you and I don't get along is because of your constant ignorant posts. You said you were staying away from this section, yet your obsession compels you to display your bigotry and ignorance.
Yeah, screw the Arabs. It's not our fault they don't like most of the dictators we supported and helped get in that place. They should just learn to deal with oppression.
Because we think our culture is better than their own. They hate our smug attitude, which is very well represented in this thread.
I agree with a lot of this, especially the repercussions of the Sykes-Picot agreement, with us still after all the years since the secret agreement in 1916, but why did you mention the Marshall Plan in this context? I must be forgetting something. Otherwise, a post that has much to recommend it. However, I'll add that while many of our interventions in the region were poorly thought out, with some better to have stayed in a file drawer at the Pentagon and State Department, not all fit that description. Desert Storm was a no-brainer. I can't think of a modern President that would have stood by and not responded in a similar fashion, including Carter. The same with Afghanistan. I agree that there are a host of other things of a questionable nature (supporting corrupt "royal" despots, for example), or of a possibly criminal nature, such as the invasion and occupation of Iraq, but perhaps your brush is too broad.
yeah, dunno what I was thinking when I wrote Marshall Plan. Meant to write the Balfour Declaration. Agree that not every intervention was unjustified- for example, Afghanistan is something I supported when we went in and although I now think it wasnt worth it, it's a debatable topic and dont begrudge people for defending it. That said, there are always consequences- what do you honestly think the civilian toll has been in Afghanistan? 50,000 is a very conservative estimate. The Afghanistan War also required us to have major military presence in Pakistan, which had obvious consequences. Iran and Pakistan had a major influx of Afghan refugees. The country has literally known nothing but war for the past three decades, meaning that the average 25 year old Afghan doesnt comprehend what it means to live in stability or any semblance of normalized society. I'm not creating an equivalency here, just trying to shed light on the fact that the rest of the world doesnt see things the same way we do. Ten years later, we dwell, and rightfully so, on the loss of an estimated 3,000 innocent civilians. It is arguable that 9/11 led directly to foreign engagements in Iraq and Afghanistan and that neither would have been justifiable in its absence. But we think hundreds of thousands of dead innocent civilians in foreign nations will have no impact on them because they should 'know better' or understand what we're trying to do. That they should recognize we're better for them, that the politicians we endorse are better for their future than other politicians, when the only ostensible difference between two parties is their adherence to western policies/positions and views on the US. Like I said before, my comment wasnt a total condemnation of every military operation we've ever conducted; they might all be justifiable to somebody. That's really not the point. The point is that if we're going to be honest about evaluating perceptions of us and why anti-americanism is resonant throughout the middle east, all we need to do is look at the past two decades.
No, it is saying there are varying sects throughout entire countries, which causes things to be difficult. The Middle East is far more regional than the USA, people's cultures are wrapped around the sects they grew up in....at least a good number of people there. WW1, really? We are talking about **** that happened nearly 100 years ago....get over it !! The world changes, no one here runs around talking about that danged Louisiana purchase.... The reason you and I don't get along is because you like to make excuses, are generally a dumbass, and I don't bother myself with lesser folks like you Now go get me some ale SERF ! DD
Just curious if you (and others positing the same sentiments) feel the same way about Black Americans in the US. Statistically, Black men represent about 6% of the total population and about 40% of the prison population. Over 70% of Black babies are born out of wedlock. Graduation rates are significantly lower nationally for Black students despite measures like affirmative action. Black people as a whole make up about 14% of the total population but constitute roughly 40% of all welfare recipients. Do you (and others) see these statistics as a product of their own victim culture? Shouldnt they just quit whining and realize they can be like their white counterparts? Or could it possibly be a product of other circumstances (socio-economic factors, etc.)?
Of course some of it is socio economic - no doubt about that. If you want to start a thread about that topic, feel free, this one is about the Middle East, and their alleged hatred of the USA. The world is getting smaller, it is a culture clash, and all people, or most, resist change. Especially leaders that blame the West for their own people's fate....... While the west is not perfect, the culture is far more advanced, and better for people than what is generally available in most of the middle east. DD
I think the two topics are related, and thats why I brought it up. If you're willing to acknowledge that statistically verifiable negative facts about Black Americans today are impacted by a history of slavery, jim crow, civil rights movements, poverty, and discriminatory practices, I'm wondering why you're unwilling to afford the middle east those same concessions? Havent those people been (and many still are) victims of poverty and war? How come one groups history is allowed to impact the way they think but another groups history is not?
The Middle East has had decades of their own rule to sort out or rise above the effects of colonialism. While said effects are still an issue, the lack of accountability for their ruling class is more of an issue. The lack of an equal distribution of wealth is another issue, the lack of education is a major issue, the lack of access to information from outside their control group another issue. I don't necessarily blame the people themselves - if they don't know any better, but I do blame them for not holding their leadership accountable. How long do we say "It's ok, they had to endure war?" How is Germany these days? Their country was devestated at the end of WW2, same with Japan, China.....etc..etc...etc.... This has far more to do with culture and a lack of accountability by their leadership, IMO. And to answer your question about African Americans in this country, poverty and socio economics are an issue for sure, but the choice and responsibilities of individuals and their actions are also culpable. DD
