Atheists tend to get more grief because they are generally viewed as cynical, pessimistic "party poopers". I don't necessarily agree.
Yes, but every time i hear religion mentioned in public, an atheist goes out of their way to mention how "enlightened" they are. It becomes very annoying and tiresome
Not any more often than a religious person does their condescending "you will find the light eventually, child."
yeah, it certainly happens much more than that, by a TON. I have never encountered a religious nut like that in person in my life. I find atheists like the ones I describes all the time, almost on a daily basis
I have. This Baptist dude chased me around my whole freshman year in college trying to "help me find Jesus." I tried to be respectful toward the guy's religion but I finally had to tell him off. Another time when I was in high school, the door bell rings and I open the door to greet a couple of young baptists. They start rambling on and on about Jesus and I humor them as I was just beginning to question my faith at that time. Suddenly the dude gets all "bodies on the floor Benny Hinn" on me. He's practically yelling at me to fall to my knees and beg for forgiveness. I just said "maybe later," and slammed the door on them.
Middle to upper class? Caucasian? In college? All of those factors will lead to you having a higher exposure to atheists in general and those theists you do encounter will probably be more polite and less pushy about their religion.
This. contrary to the position of the OP. That said, people are different, and there are those in both camps that behave on both ends of the persuasive/selfrighteous spectrum, so making a blanket statement is probably more in tune with one's experience than it is a condemnation of a group as a whole.
One of the things I hate the most about certain religions is their hunger to "convert" - the desire to grow their religion as fast and as large as possible. Christianity seems to be the worst at this. I'm sure there are many many many Christians who truly believe they are doing "God's" work, and saving those they convert; to me, it's freaking crazy, rude, ridiculous, and speaks volume about the validity of the underlying beliefs. Let the message speak for itself - ether people will be attracted to it, or not. I wonder, if because it seems you've left behind a line of thinking similar to this, that in your new, non-religious belief system, a little part of you is still desirous to try and "convert" others. Personally, having grown up in a Jewish household but virtually never believing in the validity of the "stories" as told (10 commandments, Noah's ark, God as presented in modern religion), and having never been forced into believing it, it's been easy to be laisse-fair about my agnostic beliefs and I have no desire to "convert" anyone. Do you think there is something inherently complex about humans that makes evolution in our species unlikely, or do you not believe in evolution at all...despite all evidence to the contrary, and clearly identified examples of species evolving?
Either there is something special about where you live, or this isn't possible. There simply aren't enough atheists generally for it to be true. If every atheist in America went out of their way to mention how "enlightened" they are, that would still only happen in what, 10% of Americans, max. AND, even if that did happen, what exactly would you expect an atheist to say in response to a situation where religion comes up in public? Why does religion always have to come up in public? Are you actually saying that there are more atheists being outspoken about "enlightenment" than there are religious people trying to "help non-religious people find the light"...?? Seriously?? On what planet???? Have you turned a television on lately? How about on Sunday mornings? Do you read billboards ? Do you vote? Watch sporting events? Award shows? Read this BBS? Because God is showing up pretty much everywhere.
Actually, 15% to be exact. See my post on that subject here: http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=5148982&postcount=83 But your point is correct: while atheists make up a significant (and growing) portion of the population, they are still heavily outnumbered (about 5 to 1) by Christians in this country. Anyone who says that the atheist "message" is put forth as much or more than the Christian "message" is deluded. And I say this as a Christian. Indeed. I checked my cable channels, and I don't have the "Atheist Broadcasting Network", but CBN is right there. You don't see people at football games holding up "God Isn't Real" signs, but the guy with the rainbow wig and the "John 3:16" sign is everywhere. Very seldom do you hear rappers point to the ceiling and say "No Supreme Being won me this award: I did it on my own!" after winning awards. To say that Christians don't spread their ideals more than atheists in the United States is disingenuous at best, and downright deceitful at worst.
Based on my own experiences, I've observed the following 2 things: 1) Atheists do go oout of their way to declare that they are "enlightened". This is not done out of the goodness of their heart, in my experience, it has almost exclusively been accompanied by cockiness or anger/frustration. I do see that the religious also like to squeeze religion into everything, but this is done out of the goodness of the heart, although I concede that the goodness of heart is often accompanied by ignorance of the mind. 2) I think there are way, way, way, way more atheists than statistics show. This could be due to a variety of reasons. When I look at the statistics, it seems as though there are (for example) no Arab or Jewish atheists. Anyone have any idea why this is done? Again, based on my experiences and interaction with people. For me, the most annoying thing is the insecure people on either side. If you're so insecure that you have to throw a tantrum everytime your beliefs are challenged, you need to look deeper.
Quote: Originally Posted by JBIIRockets As complex as the human body is, I don't see how one can't believe there is a creator. There's no way human beings just evolved from another species IMO. The irony of that line of thinking is that.. 1) Our body is so complex. 2) It has to be a statistical anomaly or a heavenly miracle. Miracle is more likely. But the thing is, imagine that it was a statistical anomaly. This statistical anomaly would HAVE to occur for you to have the capability to say "I don't think it's likely." I'm not sure I'm being clear. But... look at it this way... if 1 in one trillion experiments succeed, only the one that succeeded would be able to say "wow, that's unlikely". Even if it was just the one out of a trillion. Ugh, can't seem to explain anything today...
Sorry, but that's way too convenient. When atheists express their views it's angry cockiness, but when Christians do the same, it's good-hearted? I think the more accurate statement would be that Christians are angry that others don't share their views and cocky about they're status as one of the "saved", and that they rationalize telling others what to think or believe as being "good-hearted". I think you're right about the number of atheists being under-reported. It may be that the cultural influences of the Jewish or Arab communities are such that to admit to atheistic beliefs would be to ostracize yourself from the community/culture as a whole, and some are unwilling or unready to take that step. This is, of course, assuming you're referring to Jews as an ethnoreligious group, and not merely those who practice Judaism. Agreed, though I would take that a step further: for me the most annoying thing is the people on either side who feel to need to convert all others to their way of thinking. They would do well to spend more time focusing on examining their own beliefs and less time telling others what to do.
Argument from personal incredulity [rquoter] The argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy that essentially relies on a lack of imagination in the audience. As an example, creationists incessantly use some difficult-to-explain facet of biology as "proof" of a creator. The problem is that, though there is no non-design explanation for how precisely a certain organ could have evolved at the moment, one may be discovered in the future. Even if an explanation cannot be found, the creator is still far from proven. Sometimes they compute the astronomical odds against a molecule having a certain structure from the simple probability of n atoms arranging themselves so. They gloss over the fact that chemical laws trim most of the extraneous possibilities away. For instance, there are many ways to theoretically arrange hydrogen atoms and oxygen atoms in a molecule, but in reality, most of what forms is H2O. Another form, the argument from personal incredulity, takes the form "I can't believe P, therefore not-P." Merely because one cannot believe that, for example, homeopathy is no more than a placebo does not magically make such treatment effective. [/rquoter] Have you ever stopped to think that the problem may not be with the idea you find so difficult to believe, but you? There are all sorts of things in the Universe that seem to me to be so unlikely to as to verge on impossibility. For example, every time I try to wrap my mind around the Double Slit Experiment, my head nearly explodes. It doesn't make sense to me. But when I turn around, the double slit experiment is there, offending my sense of the universe. My solution isn't to pretend that isn't real because it doesn't seem logical to my underpowered and imperfect human consciousness.
1) I don't think it's convenient, obviously because its based on my personal bias. I don't believe in the concept of salvation btw, I'm not Christian. It's simply a matter of core belief. An atheist's core belief is that there is no life after death, therefore anyone who believes otherwise threatens their existence (number of years to live) quite easily. This is what's so scary about a guy who thinks "I will commit suicide and go to heaven while killing all these people." (Yes, idiotic, I know). Whereas for a Christian, the core belief is that there IS life after death and there ARE brownie points for converting people. So they will go about trying to seduce people to believe what they believe. Naturally, they will do so with Christian values - good heartedness being one of them. Whether you think that is ignorant or not, the intention is good hearted. For an atheist, the intention is survival. He/she doesn't gain anything from converting others except for less risk of being trapped in a world where the x number of years they have left are reduced in value. I'm not judging, just noting what I've observed. I'm also not married to these ideas, so I look forward to exchanging ideas. Are my experiences not similar to the average experience anyone else would have? 2) Exactly.. I was not referring to those who practice Judaism. I was referring to the ethnicity/race. Your comment makes sense, thanks. 3) I'm not irritated by those who try to convert. I love it, bring them on. Maybe they have some information that I wasn't aware of. As long as they are respectful, I'm fine with it and enjoy the discussion. Reminds me of this one time a guy came in, completely dissing Islam with made-up stories (not realizing I'm Muslim) and then my friends started praying and he realized he's in a house full of Muslims hahaha. He came in looking for victory, but suddenly became more than willing to call a "truce". I imagine missionairies shouldn't need to lie, so when I find the odd ones that do, I get quite annoyed that they're ruining it for everyone else.
This is exactly my point: Christian evangelism is self-serving. It is earning heavenly "brownie points". It's foisting their (usually unwanted and unheeded) opinions on others so that, when the time comes for Judgment, they can say they did their part to proselytize. You're saying they do it from a place of good-heartedness. I'm saying that, underneath that good-heartedness is the same self-serving interest, cockiness in what they believe is right and, yes, anger that someone can dismiss their belief system so easily. In short: I think you give Christians more credit than I do.
I guess there's different ways to see it. My point is that there are people who would continue to do it, even if there were no "brownie" points, out of a genuine urge to show others what they see. I guess where we differ is that you think they wouldn't do it without points, while I think most would still do it. Overall, I agree that the points system influences the behaviour of some more than it should.
The problem is you're different. Majority of the people believe in religion, because you do not you are something unknown to them. Obviously everything that's unknown must be a threat, and all threats must be dealt with promptly. As such, please be a good Atheist and die! DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!!
Knowing I do this is part of the reason I hesitate to talk about my beliefs (or lack thereof). You're very lucky you were raised in such an open-minded environment. I was passionate when I was religious, but exceptionally misinformed. I was raised to be skeptical of science, and more than once uttered the typical "You really think we evolved from apes?" I let go of religion when I started reading about science and the awe-inspiring process of evolution through natural selection. Do I look down on religious people? No. But I do look down on those who have no intellectual curiosity whatsoever, and those who think science (or the pursuit of knowledge in general) is somehow "dangerous". I am passionate about science and free thought, and am concerned that there are so many people working night and day to water down the educational system in this state to prohibit open-mindedness. In a way, I am very eager to share my story. It's a conundrum, because I don't want to offend anyone (and most of my immediate and extended family would be horrified if they knew I was an atheist). Most of the time, I keep my mouth shut. I think I've had two arguments about religion NOT on the internet (and one of those was with Jim - FattyFatBastard). I don't know where people are hanging out that they have atheists coming up and judging them all the time, but I'd like to know where it is. I only have one unbelieving friend.
Do you open-minded, free-thinking people really think that people who promote a position of faith do so out of "nothingness"... no personal experience, no growth, just rote knuckleheaded-ness? Can't it be said that science is equally narrow-minded coming from another direction? If I can't measure it or prove it via my human instruments and capabilities... it isn't so! Why are faith positions mocked but scientific hypothesis not? Seems like there is room for a huge middle-ground between these two caricatures...
