So you think sitting on the fence gets you somewhere. If you think hedging your bets on a probable illusion is a good idea, then you better repent, start reading your bible, praying and 'give your life to Christ' because that's apparently what you need to get into Heaven....otherwise your hell bound I guess... unless you have some semblance of a clue as to why merely believing in a god gets you into some kind of heaven.
You know, as a non-religious guy who's gone to many different kinds of services for different religions just out of curiosity... solely from that personal experience, it seems to me that christians have a good 3/4 of the market on atheist-hate. Every other place of worship I visited was always extremely welcoming, clearly happy to have a guest curious to learn about their faith. Except christians. With christian services, I guarantee at least one or two people will shoot you an evil glare if you're in a service and you don't take the eucharist. Again, just my experience. But it's startlingly consistent.
That would make you agnostic. I don't believe in any particular God, but I don't disbelieve one exists. I love the on-the-fence approach. Science has explained almost everything in terms of the creation of the universe, but there's still one part that is unexplained: how did that infinitely dense mass that begun expanding (via Big Bang) get there?
Man, that conversation I had in my philosophy class is really coming back to me. You're bringing up a lot of exactly the same points. Another funny thing I found about the conversation was that everybody seemed to be assuming that I must be horribly depressed all the time or something. Hey... meaning being assigned by humans for humans isn't really as depressing an idea as everyone makes it out to be. I always think back to when I was having this conversation with someone in my (christian) service group who was just so shocked when I said I was atheist-agnostic. They had this awe-struck look, and asked "well why do you do service if you don't believe in god?" And I simply told them that I thought it was a good thing to do. I have more than your average person does, and if I was lower down on the totem pole, I'd personally appreciate some help. I then remarked that it was an odd question coming from a christian, seeing as they're supposed to do good for good's sake, not for the sake of saving their soul or getting into heaven. That's just glorified self-interest. It's not what christianity is ideally about, but that's functionally what it ends up being for many, I find. But to come back to my point: I know I'm not the only one who feels motivated to use my life to make life at least slightly better for other people that I care about. Nothing depressing about that. I don't need a god for that. "Higher purpose" is overrated. If you really think about it, no matter how "high" you get, it all comes down to life for life's sake. Why is serving "god's will" better than serving man for man's sake? What's god's will for? Is it for his happiness? If it is, then why is his happiness more important than yours or mine? If it's not, well... seriously, what's the point?
Regarding the first paragraph: I wasn't saying that at all. I was saying that's the atheists focus, and what is wrong with that being your sole focus instead of a god. Regarding Bill Maher: Bill Maher is a comedian - of course he was bringing the humour. There are better programs/doco's you could watch. Maybe by Richard Dawkins for example.
lol - you missed the point. It is an illusion - but it's a nice one. It's like a fairy tale, or imagining you will win the lottery - kinda a nice day dream ya know? Illusions can be useful. Personally, people do all of these things because it helps them deal with their everyday life. It gives it purpose and meaning. Hides away the cold bitter reality that the world around us is godless and meaningless. I find the universe to be absurdly fascinating...even our own existence. When you think about everything that had to happen for you to be sitting behind the computer typing...from the big bang to the formation of sub atomic particles to vibrating strings to planets and random chemicals duplicating themselves by some accidental reaction that was able to perpetuate itself slowly growing more complex and in fact having to perpetuate itself IMPERFECTLY (intentionally with errors) in order to increase the liklihood of continual perpetuation...you have to stand in awe of it all. Truly our existence is founded in some pretty funky stuff. If you were to tell the history of life all the way back to the big bang to some alien entity that had no knowledge of anything, they would think you were making up some kind of fantastical story. Now, that is not to say I believe in a god, but it would not surprise me if there is something going on here we have yet to be aware of. Or maybe not. Either way, Religion is simply another layer of control natural selection has placed on top. But to dogmatically embrace athleticism is no different then being religious in the first place. That is, if you really do seek the truth.
The most noble reason to do something is because it truly brings you joy. There is no higher purpose than that.
One of my Atheist friends and I had this VERY conversation online and this was his response: I believe that the truth and true humility is... I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. I find that explaining such by placing a belief or wager in the idea that an outside being, or "God" did it, is ignortant because it can not be demonstrated. The reality is... we do not know how mass or anything got here. Apparently there was a beginning to everything. The Christian explanation is that God is not subject to time and always existed. I find no reason or flaw in logic that stops the application of "always existing" to mass/universe as it does to a creator. but my answer is.. true humility says... "I don't know." rather than creates an answer which can not be proven or demonstrated. I find that the idea of a supreme being, or "control" is placed in the gaps of what we do not understand, such as creation. At one time there was Zeus and Thor, which had as much dedication as any Abrahamic religion, (Christianity/Judaism/Islam). Zeus and Thor "Created the thunder and lightning" but now, we are able to understand how and why. Is there inifinity? is there and end to the universe? a beginning? the honest truth --> we do not know. He adds more: actually, i do find great comfort in admitting I do not know. and my Atheism is not a statement in that "there is NO GOD!". it's very much more a statement of "I do not see any reason to believe a supreme being exists, or any supernatural powers at all, for that matter." when taken honestly, the idea of a supernatural supreme being is no more far fetched than leprechauns and faeries. if you "just believe", then .. you believe. but i dont find that i need an answer. I'm comfortable with.. I don't know. and alot of it honestly is the fact that we're the only species that is aware that some day, we we will face death. It's really a great concept that we can survive our own deaths and such. but this is not proven, and there's no reason why one would assume it's true other than desire. Again.. an Atheist point of view (not mine) Interesting tho.
Atheism is simply a lack of belief in god(s). You would be hard pressed to find a thoughtful atheist who claims he/she absolutely knows with 100% certainty god(s) does not exist. There is a difference between belief and absolute, 100% knowledge but at some point in the rational thought process the belief (or disbelief) is so overwhelmingly supported by the evidence available to us it becomes a fact for all practical purposes. The problem I see is that theists (and *self-proclaimed agnostics) grant the existence of god(s) different criteria for existence than something like the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus. Most adults will agree that neither of those two characters exist. We feel comfortable in our belief that they do not exist to the point where we say we know they don't exist. Do we know 100% they do not exist? No we don't because we don't know everything and the things we don't know could be proof they exist but based on what we do know about the natural world they cannot exist therefore we conclude they do not exist. Nobody ever says you are being closed-minded or dogmatic if you don't admit that the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus could exist. All atheists do is apply the same criteria for the existence of god(s) as everyone else does for the existence of the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus. Based on lack of evidence we conclude that god(s) does not exist. *note: The reason I included self-proclaimed agnostics in my post was because in my experience people who label themselves as agnostics are guilty of the inconsistency in their criteria for god(s) existence and the existence of all other things supernatural that I mentioned above.
I don't give atheists grief for their beliefs. I do antagonize people who go into absolutes, even if I'm guilty of appearing to give them from time to time. I'm not attracted to religion out of fear, but more out of curiosity because beyond the primary holy books are thousands upon thousands of years of thought and critical thinking attached to religion. Those traditions and teaches were once keenly abstract. It still is, but now their results are also as real as freedom or liberty. I don't really mind a concept of human-defined meaning instead of an absolutely defined meaning. Maybe that doubt is why I don't declare a religion, but even attaching God as the paragon of ideal love or goodness isn't that bad of an "illusion" or "sham". I would say it's better than most of the do-it-yourself mantras or ideologies that have sprung up in the last 50 years. So maybe I'm attracted to the other draw of religion: making meaning and order out of chaos. Some would say religion allows people to adapt better in the chaos. Enlightenment isn't a bad thing. I think if the average person uses religion as a driver to make their lives more meaningful instead of allowing themselves to be an instrument of religion, then we'd shed a lot of heartache and suffering. But that wish would be a catch-22 on human nature. Is it really the religion controlling the person, or the person allowing to be controlled because the fear of the consequences of absolutely free will is even more terrifying? Oh ye of little faith.
It probably depens were you are from. In the Netherlands Atheist are not treated poorly (probably because we have many of them). I'm an atheist and I do not hide it. There is no need for that. I do not bash people who do believe in a god, but I just do not. If believing in a god makes them happy I'm happy for them. Because i believe that is all we can o in this life enjoy it and be happy.
A more practical answer: Judaism + Christianity + Islam all ban denying God, believing in more than one God, and idol worship. That's almost half the world. The grief probably comes from the frustration of not being able to transfer faith easily. Sometimes people forget the Moses PBUH, Jesus PBUH and Muhammad PBUH all faced people who wouldn't accept their religion. At some point we have to realize that not everyone will believe, and that is human nature.
Because Atheism and Agnosticism as its usually practiced does not offer any core life values, principles, balance, order, morality on how to life live better, doesnt offer any kind of purpose. Atheism is seen as denouncing gods and winging it every day with hardly any plan or direction. Atheism is an absence of belief, when people want belief. People want to look at atheism as a belief system, when that in itself is contradictory to what atheism is. I myself think atheists benefit from the structure that religion and laws have constructed. Atheists can choose to not believe in god, but still follow the laws that CHURCH and state have implemented. They can live totally off the almost smug satisfaction of being enlightened ones who think outside the box, without being called up to do anything. If atheists (if atheists even care to mesh together as a group) need be the dominant way rather than religion, they're gonna have some problems because atheism is 80% contrarian to giving a crap.
For me Atheism is about thinking for yourself what your morals and values are. It doesn't mean you do not give a crap. I have high morals, I do not believe in killing any living organism without a purpose (I’m no vegetarian since eating is a purpose). I never kill an insect. Furthermore I believe that many laws of men are good, and I definitely follow them. I try not to hurt other people. i try to help the less fortunate. Not because some holy book tells me, but because i believe it is the right thing to do. I do not need some godly punishment to scare me into following the rules. My own moral values make sure I do not do evil things. The problems I have with some religious lunatics is that they care more about the laws of god (which they interpret from some holy book) than for the laws of men. So if they believe it is the will of a god to kill a man they can do this. The problem is that there is to much discussion about what the will of a god is, so lunatics can use them as an excuse for doing terrible things (excuse to others and their own conscience). An Atheist should also have high morals, and know that killing a man is not good. They do not have the excuse of a deity to say that it was his will. They make the decision themselves. I’m not saying that Atheist have better moral values than religious people, but they also do not have lesser values just because they do not believe in a god.
I have trouble letting go of my childhood belief system, because it was all I ever knew. My ignorant stepfather claimed to have a divine understanding of Christianity even though he never finished high school. Others in my extended family are extremely intelligent people who maintain a firm belief in God. The question taxes me greatly. I think faith is not a bad thing, it can motivate many people to achieve great things. My mother has the faith of a child, she never questioned anything. I question everything. I do not usually believe in absolutes, I always try to understand both sides of the argument. I study Philosophy, and I find truth and meaning everywhere. The Philosophy of Jesus is a beautiful one. Simplistic, yet very effective. Live a life focused on love, and let go of your fears. Pure self interest at the expense of others is wrong. In my opinion, fear is really the biggest setback to humanity. Many other human flaws are derived from it. Religion is my biggest problem with belief in God. I despise religion and the horrible things done in the name of a supposed All-Powerful being. I despise those who claim to be divine agents of God in order to collect the Almighty Dollar. My cousin works with a missionary camp in Australia, and travels frequently to Indonesia to spread the word of God. He is very passionate about it and considers it his life's work. When I see Religion I see the fear, the greed, the power-hungry, the selfish, and the bigoted. Atheism, however is too much of an extreme conclusion for me. I cannot conclude that there is no God, because I see a world every day of extreme beauty that could have never been designed by anything less than a super-being. A world so intricately crafted, in which things work together in ways a blueprint could have never fathomed. It all seems so perfect and beyond chance to me. Its a simplistic view to many others, but I cling to it.
