A recent true story, and I have several of them to tell a young man came to our church, he used to believe in God, after going through a horrible divorce and losing most everything he had including his kids he had stopped believing in God years ago. After coming to church (I know this guy and I was very surprised he would show up in church) I asked him to go to lunch. We talked alot and got to know each other. He told me He was going to believe in God again, I said fine. Next Sunday he came to church again. This week he stood up and asked to talk. He then told the church that he was going to believe in God even though he had gone through hard times. He said that he asked God for a job and told God in a prayer he would take the first job available. He went to work for Sears as a salesman that next week. The following week in church he asked to talk again. This time he said that his supervisor at work was a lady who had been married 5 times and everyone hated her because she was a A**h**e. He said that he had been such a scumbag that he didn't want to hate anyone, so he tried to be nice to her. He said by the end of the week she asked him why he was sucking up. He told her he wasn't that she was rude and pissed everyone off and he didn't really have any reason to treat anyone the same way and he was believing in God again. The next week he stood up in church again and said that the supervisor at work was getting along with him and they even had some talks about God. One week later he called me on the phone and asked me to pray to God real hard. I asked why and he said he had an impossible situation and if God was real only God could fix the problem. So I prayed. That was on a Friday a 11 am. On Saturday he called me at my house crying. He then told me the story. He said that when he called and asked me to pray to God he just left a meeting with a man that he used to live with. The man was wealthy and had evidence to convict him of felony theft. He had stolen over $200,000.00 from the man because he knew where he kept alot of money when they lived together. The rich man had completed an investigation and secured both evidence and a confession from this fellow who started to believe in God again. He then told me that during the meeting the man had a lawyer, the evidence and demanded that if he didn't produce $15000.00 by Monday morning the case was going to the police. That was Friday (he called me for prayer as he left the meeting) he went ahead to Sears for his work shift. The supervisor saw he was distressed and asked what was wrong. This young man would not tell her and went about his business. As he took his afternoon break he went out to his car to sit and think. The supervisor followed him out to the car and demanded he tell her what was eating at him. He told her he could tell her. She got upset and insisted that he tell her eveything. Finally he relented and he told her the story. She smiled and said thank you. She then told my new friend she would give him the $200,000.00. He couldn't believe what she was saying and was sure she was joking or crazy. He asked her joking if she was going to sell her house. She then told him no she was going to give him the entire amount and she told him she had 5 lawyers on retainer and she would pay the best one to represent him in the settlement. She told him that she had over 5 million in savings alone from various settlements she had received. She then explained that when he started talking about how bad his life had been and he was going to start believing in God again she had felt that was something she really needed to consider. She had left God out of her belief system long ago. She had decided that if he could help her believe again she wanted to help him but she didn't know how to do it until that day. I have verified this story. Not only that, his ex-wife happened to show back up in his life about the time he came back to church and now they are dating, their kids are together with mom and dad and just this week he moved in back home. I had lunch with both of them after church this past Sunday. She hadn't been in church in a long time. I realize what unusual coincidences those are but I have now found it quite hard to convince this fellow that there is no God. I have been praying for him and his wife for several months because I knew his mother and she asked me to. Just by coincidence he wandered uninvited into our church one Sunday, by coinicidence he took a job at Sears making about $200.00 per week just because he told God in prayer he would take the very first opportunity after putting out several resumes. And by the way, the job he really wanted was at a Chemical plant that this week contacted him and told him he will be interviewed for an upcoming opening. I know that answers to prayers are coincidences, but I see alot more coincidences when I pray than when I don't. Experiences with God are not always dramatic, this one was; but to say it doesn't make a difference really doesn't fit with many people who are very convinced that God has indeed visited their life in a specific way. I know an experience with God can be very unique and different almost unlimited in variety and nature but to say God doesn't exist because you have no personal reference point is discounting alot of contrary evidence. I would be happy to arrange you to meet this fellow, it would be a great encouragement to you. Thanks for getting this far if you did.
Oh she is a crazy hot girl, equal doses of both. See, the thing of it is, there was no evidence in the first place. Their belief conjured it. But I agree with you, belief and popular opinion are not always wrong, in fact they are often right, but it still makes a piece of evidence originating from those sources suspect. Its like how clutch does not let posts from Hoopsworld or RealGM stand alone as sources. Their information is not always wrong, but its been soo blatently wrong in the past it is no longer acceptable. The popular world once thought the earth was the centre of the universe, that alone means their opinion is no longer enough.
i laughed out loud. awesome story, rhester. i've collected enough of those sorts of stories to find faith as well. i'm the product of one of them, frankly. i just believe...i'm always happy to talk that through with someone, but not interested in theorems or proofs. i can't do it that way, and even if i could i don't find any "soul" in that. i'm fully convinced there is a God who I know through the person of Jesus Christ.
The evidence that electrons exist is a bit more substantial then the fact that 75% of people believe in electrons. Your analogy is like a Ford, only it doesn't have wheels. And you can't drive it. And it's not a car.
This is utter nonsense. You are a serial offender in this regard and you apparently do not care to educate yourself in the least about science. Let’s deal with the issue of falsifiablility first. There all kind of theories that are difficult to directly falsify, including, for example, vertical evolution. This is one of the most well know and obvious theories that has major problems with falsifiablilty, (and yet you apparently have been completely unaware of that fact in spite of the fact that evolution and falsifiablilty are two of your favourite topics.) The problem with falsifying vertical evolution is obvious. Given the time lines involved you can’t run a test to prove or disprove it. Instead you have to use indirect measures and make predictions about things you would expect to be true if evolution was true. You would look at the fossil record and look for certain things that the theory would predict you should find, and that is of course what is done. The same basic principle is true for all kinds of theories that for one reason or another are difficult to falsify directly, including the existence of God. In relation to that chart, there are all kinds of studies directed at understand different parts of the human experience that use this general kind of data/evidence including questionnaires, polls, interviews, etc., and there are probably thousands of scientific, peer reviewed, papers published in academic journals every year using these methods. LSD literally has no idea what he’s talking about, but he just keeps on pretending that he does, so readers be warned.
The 75% number is not relevant to the point. Can you see an electron, or do you have to see evidence that it exists indirectly? That is the question.
Again, utter nonsense. If the person outside the room didn't enter it but went home instead, and then that night the building burned to the ground, the person could still believe with a fairly high degree of certainty that there probably had been a chandelier in the room. Indirect evidence is used all the time, including and probably most famously to support the theory of evolution.
Rhester just wanted to let you know that was a wonderful story. I been blessed my whole life and for that reason alone I still believe and love God. I don't associate with any particular religion anymore but I'm happy to say I found peace with that.
If there is no chandelier, and the 75% of the people are just ****ing dumb, and mistook some clown's balloon for your ornate light fixture. Do you still consider their invalid belief that they saw a chandelier as evidence of its existence in the room? To stay consistent with your claims of 'evidence', your answer must be yes. Nice evidence you have there! So valuable. Enjoy your balloon.
This is a theory, but is there any evidence to support it? Exactly right. It is not 100% reliable (neither is direct evidence, btw, but it is certainly more reliable), but it is evidence. And the more people who believe it and the longer the time it has been believed the stronger the evidence gets. There is a greater chance that it is true rather than just some random misbelief of some sort, in other words. There are other ways to make this kind of evidence stronger as well. Many studies are done with "experts" in a given field, and this increases the probability of producing good results. In the case of doing a study on the existence of God you would to a significant extent be looking at the beliefs of a culture rather than the beliefs of an individual, or at least you could do it that way. There are various ways you could do it.
Personally, I think the existence of people who saw the chandelier is evidence of its existence. Of course, it is merely evidence and not proof. I think the existence of people who have experienced god in some way is evidence that god exists. Again, that's just evidence, not proof, as Grizzled was saying. I think a large number of people believing in god might also be considered evidence, although it is far weaker than people who recount actual experiences. Still, I guess it is evidence. Now, the problem is that those things are weak evidence. Especially the third one. This is especially true when there exists evidence that explains how so many people could believe something that is not in fact true. I'm going to change the chandelier example a little bit. Let's say 75% of the people come out of the room and say they saw a mouse. If that was the only information I had about the room, would I believe that there was likely a mouse in the room? Yes. (Note that I'm talking about belief to the best of my knowledge, not scientific proof.) But what if the people who saw the mouse gave conflicting descriptions of the mouse (e.g., half said the mouse was about 6 inches long, half said 3 inches). Would I believe that there was a mouse in the room? Maybe, maybe not, although I would probably believe something was in the room. Now, what if I had evidence that something happened inside the room that might cause people to believe there was a mouse? For example, I knew that the walls and floor of the room were painted in such a way as to form an optical illusion that makes it appear as if a mouse is moving against the wall. Even if I didn't have proof of that evidence, it would certainly throw the stories of the people inside the room into doubt. The stronger the evidence of the illusion, the less likely I would believe the people. So, I guess the point is that I think that the existence of a large number of people who experience something is a form of evidence in support of that thing (especially the larger the number of people gets), but it is far from very strong evidence and it can often be refuted with other more convincing evidence.
This is all good, and what you have done here is very scientific, btw. The questions then become: How strong is strong? What are the other factors? What other tests can we do to either support or disprove the theory? On the subject of God, I will agree with you that hearing personal experiences is extremely powerful. Not everyone's personal experience will be powerful to every listener, mind you, but there are people who you really connect with and identify with whose personal experiences can really resonate strongly, and I think a great deal of new found awareness and learning can come from such encounters.
Thats why they call it a leap of faith. What bothers me, is people induce themselves into knowing to affirm their belief (as stated earlier, for page after page after page). I think eventually the heartbreaking stories or the uplifting stories bear their weight and we all choose a side. It takes its toll.
Exactly. To say that the beliefs and experiences of others should be completely ignored when forming an opinion is wrong, in my opinion. However, I don't think I'd say that hearing personal experiences is extremely powerful. I actually believe the opposite, it is only minimally relevant. The reason I place so little weight on such evidence is that alternative explanations to people's perceived experiences are much more logical to me. When I was young that thought was primarily based on intuition, but the more I've learned and experienced myself I feel comfortable supporting that conclusions with solid reasoning. My point was that just because I feel other evidence is much stronger than the existence of those who believe and their experiences, doesn't mean those things are completely irrelevant. And for those people who give them greater weight, I don't think it's valid to argue they are wrong simply because they give great weight to that information. Instead you would have to show the contradictory evidence and provide reasoning for why you feel it is superior.
This has got to be a joke. Alternatively, what little credibility you had left on threads involving science is completely shot.
Right. Just the fact the question is asked of "isnt that what atheists want" would indicate a lot of people dont perceive atheism as "giving a crap" (my earlier misinterpreted words). Answering the thread question directly, this is why I think atheists get so much grief. Basically atheism leaves people hanging. Atheism strips belief but doesnt replenish enough back. And again I say this as an atheist turned agnostic myself. Hoping and coping is or should be THE universal accepted thing in life. Do atheists want to sleep well at night? Sure for the most part. But in and of itself atheism doesnt offer a set of values and life discipline to follow on the same institutional scale as religion. It piggybacks and rides off the coattails of existing values and norms. And it doesnt attempt to aggregate them all together either. When you're in the hospital bed with a terminal illness (which of course you're in a medical facility for, and not solely relying on God's blessing ), would you feel inspired by those praying for your health? Or the couple atheists that come along and says things just happen out of chance, and hope you bear with it, champ. Its not saying ONLY religion provides direction and fullfillment in life. Just that religion naturally offers alot of that in its teaching and literature and atheism needs to step up to match that. Albert Einstein allowed himself a belief in some sort of faith. I think because as much as we know there's plenty we dont know. And in that 2% the brightest and smartest dont know, they'll fit that 2% unknown with ANYTHING they want with an aim toward making life livable. Like a cheat day in a diet, we can allow cheat beliefs in our life.
Ah yes, Grizzled's current call du jour. If you ask him to elaborate on this silly claim of his, he will happily direct you to a wealth of easy-to-find source material. You can readily evaluate it yourself. If you press him to please further explain his views and knowledge in this area, he will respond with an eloquent explanation . Truly, folks, this is real.
