See, this point right here is the most powerfull one anyone has made all day. The evidence does not show it to be fact. Most atheists (at least the ones I know) do not have this viewpoint. They clearly assert that God does not exist, not that the evidence does not show His existance. Gun to my head I'd classify you as an agnostic, because it doesn't seem like you reject the notion of God, you just seem to show their is not enough evidence to assert its truth. I believe in God primarily because it is what I need to to sleep at night. Do I have evidence He exists, no. All religions, all books are confusing, convoluted, and left up to inerpretation. If God is as powerful as people assert he is, why did he not make a book, regardless of race, gender, age, that all human beings could read and gain the same perspective of Him? Why is there so much confusion on His intent? Why do people die uttering his name? Is it in false action? In spite of the purponderance of evidence, I think God exists. I don't know he exists. By believing in God, pain, misery and so forth happen for a reason. If I didn't, I think I'd be a very depressed person. Believing in God let's me live life, isn't that what atheists want as well? The difference is, I won't be mad at you if you say I'm wrong, or call me an idiot, I'll be mad if you say you know I'm going to hell, or that life is meaningless, or whatever. My belief in God is for me, and no one else.
I don't reject many notions such as dancing unicorns. But I don't take them into my life and I don't reason things with a possibility that a super nature might exist in the back of my head.
What your questions boil down to is whether personality is associated with physical processes. If it isn't derived from physical processes, then changes in physical organs, such as the brain, should not effect personality. But we know they do. Therefore, we know that personality is derived from physical processes. Except that we know that both copper and electricity exist (and are physical). We know that physical processes exist. We don't know anything about spiritual functions--whether they exist or what they look like--so your analogy is premature. What do you mean by "studying spirit to spirit"? Do you know of any test protocals that employ this method? What were the results of tests using these methods? Can those results be verified? The biggest problem I have with this discussion of "spirits" is that we're not working with a clear definition of what we're talking about. What, specifically, distinguishes the spiritual from the physical? Consciousness and the various aspects of personality are qualities known to emerge from physical processes, so they can't be used to define the spiritual.
This discussion is reminding me of a quote from a movie I enjoy: People break down into two groups. When they experience something lucky, group number one sees it as more than luck, more than coincidence. They see it as a sign, evidence, that there is someone up there, watching out for them. Group number two sees it as just pure luck. Just a happy turn of chance. I'm sure the people in group number two are looking at those fourteen lights in a very suspicious way. For them, the situation is a fifty-fifty. Could be bad, could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they're on their own. And that fills them with fear. Yeah, there are those people. But there's a whole lot of people in group number one. When they see those fourteen lights, they're looking at a miracle. And deep down, they feel that whatever's going to happen, there will be someone there to help them. And that fills them with hope. See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, that sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky? Or, look at the question this way: Is it possible that there are no coincidences?
Honestly, I don't think that idea fills very many atheists with fear. On the contrary, I think many atheists feel more hope and less fear given their belief that life is not being guided by something higher.
there were 14 alien ships! i don't know who would be more scared of that...i imagine we'd all be pretty freaked out. i don't wanna get too technical with this though...i was just saying that it reminded me of that part of the movie...i didn't even remember that part of the line, specifically, when i went hunting for it.
hey, it's not my quote!!! blame m. night shamalamadingdong!!!! by the way...these threads lose me when it turns in to a "let's discuss proving up God with the scientific method" i'm not the least bit interested in that. it's like speaking entirely different languages to me.
Nope, I know that physical processes are associated with spiritual processes. That wasn't what I was asking at all, to simplify it for times sake, I was asking if a human thought is physical. That's all you have to answer. (BTW you realize this is all down time for me, not trying to prove anything, it's D&D) are you saying that resentment doesn't exist? I know copper and electricity are physical I was making a comparison for your sake. Let me ask you can you walk up and hand me electricity to hold or can you only make me a conductor? Electricity does not exist apart from a conductor. What I mean is that matters of relationship and personality are studies by thought, reason and choices, things that aren't physical. This is how we study spiritual things. the spirit is a part of life, life is not something I can define but I can measure and observe it. let me give you a clear definition of the spirit- human thought, motive, reason, imagination, will, emotion, understanding and conscience; revealed by human choice, character and personality
Fair enough (and agreed, FWIW) - I was talking more about fear vs faith. This has been discussed so much here that it's probably ridiculous to re-assert but... Personally, I think it takes a certain amount of "fear of the unknown" to fully embrace blind faith. A discomfort with the idea that things are not intended or planned - a fear of the sporadic, if you will. The coping mechanism is a sky-god that "has a plan" - one that he/she just ain't sharing with you. Obviously, not every believer thinks this way or thinks this facet as critical. The alternative, is that the atheist/agnostic embraces the unknown. Or, more counterpointedly, perhaps fears such a plan as indicative of an illusory aspect of free will.
Please look back at the chart g1184 posted. It shows that over 3/4 of the people in the world believe in a god or gods, and over 1/2 of the people believe in the God of Abraham. This is very strong evidence that a god or gods exist, and it’s compelling evidence that the God of Abraham exists specifically. And this is, of course, scientific evidence. It is a form of indirect evidence.
I don't think so. Most Americans think the 4 seasons of the earth are caused by the earth's eliptical orbit, in fact 3/4 of college graduates (not in Astrophysics) polled believed the same thing. Polls and popularity rarely leads creadence to fact, other than the fact of what is popular.
Wait... they aren't?!? [/faint] The obvious counter argument to this is that I'm sure there were times when the majority of people in the world thought it was flat, or thought the sun rotated around the earth, etc. If 1000 years from now the majority of humans don't believe in god, that will still not be valid evidence going the other way.
Well, there’s probably a reason why most Americans believe that. I’m sure they didn’t all just randomly make that answer up, but, regardless of the fact that they are sometimes wrong, if a large percentage of people believe something is true then there is good reason to believe that it may well be true. If you’re standing outside a room and 100 people walk out and 75 of them tell you that there was a big chandelier in the room, then you would likely think that there probably is a chandelier in the room. It is true that indirect evidence is not as strong as direct evidence, but it is evidence just the same, and large areas of science rely on it very heavily. You can’t see an electron, for example. You can only see evidence that an electron exists.
Oh, wait, never mind. I didn't realize that by "elliptical orbit" you meant people think that our orbit gets us closer to the sun for summer and farther away for the winter. I'd never heard of that theory before, I'm surprised "most americans" believe it. Anyhoo, carry on.
What does it matter if we believe in god or not? If the god is the one that created heaven and earth then he created countless planets stars and glaxies, yet he is worried about what we tiny humans on a tiny planet called earth believe in him or not? So if god really exists, we will meet him in after life if there is one or life comes to an end after you die. You can believe or not believe in god, it makes no difference in the end.
