First, I didn't say Cuttino would be to that level--I said that him, Steve, and Griffin as a trio could reach dominance. but there is no reason anyone has put forward to believe CWebb would not get along with Francis, Cat, or Griffin unless they were selfishly putting thier shot count above giving the team the best chance to win. I cannot envision Chris Webber being happy averaging 16 points and 10 rebounds a game, which is what he would long-term here imho. Webber wants to have good teammates, but he still wants to be the man. And, he's too talented not to. If you bring him here, you're still going to be soft inside, and you're not going to let Griffin, Steve, and Cat develop to their fullest potential because they will not get enoug touches. The Rockets have enough stars right now. Webber or not, this team will go nowhere in the postseason until we get a decent center who can rebound and defend. Hakeem, if we resign him, will only be here for one or two more years, and after that we have Cato, who should be in the CBA, and Collier, who should be a Sam Perkins type player off the bench, not your starting center. Webber would help us out, sure. But you give away all your capspace for years to get him, and we are still too soft inside. In addition, his playoff record is not all that impressive, as the Freak stated. Mo is not in his prime yet, he will get better, he fits in well with chemistry, and if you take him you have the room to pursue a center who can defend and block some shots. Bottom line: if you get Chris Webber, you better be damn sure you can win a championship because you have no flexibility at all. Teams aren't exactly lining up to take Cato and Walt, and while KT, Collier, and Bullard are solid players, they aren't going to get you much in trades. With or without Webber, we still need to get a physical player at center in order to win, and with Webber you probably won't have a good chance at getting it done. In addition, you risk harming team chemistry and the development of our young players. ------------------ EDDIE, EDDIE, EDDIE!!! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
The reason Mo disappears is because he is so incredibly inactive that he needs plays run for him in order to score. He can't rebound so how's he going to get the ball unless they run a play for him? Kenny Thomas, as average as he is, doesn't seem to have a problem with disappearances because he gets offensive rebounds and putbacks. Thomas is constantly moving, slashing, and getting in position. Saying that Mo Taylor doesn't rebound because of style is like saying Pig Miller can't shoot 3's because he has bad form on his jumper. Bottom line is he blows. Rudy T will back any player on his team, that's his job. His track record is showing increasingly that he is blind when it comes to his own players, just like you're blind when it comes to Mo Taylor. According to Rudy T, Cato was worth an insane contract, Quitten was going to get us deep into the playoffs, Matt Maloney was worth a 7 year deal, Brent Price was our point guard of the future, and Brian Shaw could't play for us but he sure could win a few rings with the Lakers. For every good pick like Mobley there's been a Dave Jamerson, Rodrick Rhodes, Bryce Drew, and Derek Chievous. I wouldn't exactly be calling RudyT an expert when it comes to talent evaluation. ------------------ First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!
Timing- Watching Mo T it seems to me he disappears when he gets in foul trouble. He does have a problem with foul trouble and once he sits down with 2 fouls I've noticed he doesn't come back with the same defensive intensity to rebound and get open for shots I think if Rudy can get him to GET OVER the foul intimidation he will improve. Rudy goes after guys he likes- sorry thats a Rudy thing (he has been wrong) But were he is strong is that he will make moves to improve and bring a championship to Houston- Rudy is not afraid of change and pulling the trigger- the Rockets are about being the best something the Oilers, Astros and this city have never had! Forget Rudy's blunders keep your eyes on the ring. If Rudy and CD think Webber brings us a ring- you can be sure they will do all they can to get him. If they don't think he will be the final piece- FORGET WEBBER ------------------
If you don't want someone here, it doesn't mean you hate him/her. ------------------ Technically speaking, we're #1! ~Portland fans
Oh I see. Mo is supposed to go completely out of the offensive system now to score? That is what will cause problems. Everyone has plays run for them. That's what an offensive set is all about. It has nothing to do with his rebounding. And as far as Rudy being a poor talent evaluator? Please tell me how we could've used another guard like Shaw on this team. He was retired at the time, and came out of retirement only at the request of Phil Jackson. Bryce Drew and Roderick Rhodes? They were the 16th and 24th picks in the draft. Go back and look at a list of players in history from those two draft spots. It's not pretty. Using those two guys as an example to support your argument is very weak, because of the picks they were drafted at. Name me one other coach who has a track record that compares to this: picking Robert Horry over "potential superstar" Harold Miner, drafting Sam Cassell at 24, drafting Othella Harrington at 30, drafting Micheal Dickerson at 14, drafting Cuttino Mobley at 41, drafting Kenny Thomas at 22, trading the #9 for a later pick and a future first rounder that got you a potential star, etc. There is no other person involved in the NBA that I would want evaluating talent for us... Rudy's track record is fantastic. As far as Pippen goes, did you even watch him during his championship years? He was a fabulous player on defense and offense. How can you blame Rudy for not being a psychic and seeing what his true colors were? The whole league wanted Pippen after that season... they must all be morons. As far as Cato, I don't really blame Rudy that much anyway. Cato had a phenomenal preseason, and he looked like the center of the future. If they didn't make a commitment to him then, they would've stood a huge risk of losing him through free agency the next summer to a team who could offer a lot more than we could. Good centers are very hard to find these days, and it's hard to blame Rudy for taking the safe road with someone who looked like a gem. Aelliott, Rudy seems to agree with me on the defense bit too, so he does help us in that area I believe. However, there is one area that is just as or more important from role players than defense and rebounding, and that is chemistry. You know he fits in so well here, the players love him, he loves Houston, and he works very hard. Guys who fit in that well chemistry wise are hard to find, so I would prefer to not let him go. And to be honest, I still think with Webber we would still need that defender or rebounder in the middle. Webber and Mo are still very comparable defenders, and both like to play from the perimeter a lot. Neither one is an intimidator. We need one of those before we will go anywhere. We can afford one if we resign Mo. Not the case with Webber. ------------------ EDDIE, EDDIE, EDDIE!!! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
I'm still amazed by this intuition to put a cap on the talent of the Rockets. The Rockets are set from 1-3, not 4-12 so can people quit mentioning the 'threat of becoming the Blazers'? If Mo Taylor learns to ****ing rebound is there all of a sudden a problem? Should the Rockets let him go because he's becoming too good? And if Webber comes, they could be even more dominant... or they could be less. You never really know, so IMO you should make calculated risks (such as: Griffin won't punch out Mobley) every single team-improving opportunity that you face. Mo and Chris are rather similar offensively. Chris gives you legitimacey w/ the refs. He lets wittle oll Achebe see the team 25 times a season on tv(probably the biggest issue ). But more importantly, Chris gives you extra rebounding... 6 or 7 extra boards per game. BTW, since everyone likes analogies, why can't we compare the new Rockets to the Bucks? Better yet, why can't the Rockets stockpile? What's the fear in a player like Mo Taylor learning to rebound? What's the fear in getting a player that already knows how to rebound?
You've now lost all credibility with me. Kenny Thomas, as active as you say he is, disappears for weeks at a time. ------------------ I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
"Webber or not, this team will go nowhere in the postseason until we get a decent center who can rebound and defend." The Cat Who do you thing we are going to get with our cap money that is going to stop Shaq or Duncan? Marc Jackson is not going to stop Shaq. Raef LaFrentz is not going to stop Shaq. Dikembe did not stop Shaq. Alonzo is not going to stop Shaq. Antonio Davis is going to stop Shaq? Maurice Taylor nor Chris Webber is going to stop Shaq. Shaq is what 29? To get past the Lakers, the Rockets need to get even or mismatches at the other positions. Using cap money on a center hoping he can put us over the hump against the Lakers is like betting the green on a roulette table. It ain't gonna happen. Mismatches win games, and the rest of the NBA is mistmatched with the Lakers at Center. Webber gives you a weapon for rebounding and defense in the hole (as much as any other player out there at the PF spot we could acquire). Which is exactly the contribution you are looking for (just from the C instead of the PF). I don't knock MoTay for EFFORT. I give you that, but he isn't a defender. He's offensive oriented and you're being facitious or foolish to maintain otherwise. Francis doesn't have the need (like AI) to take 30 shots a game, so he's not a problem (with touches per game). Mobley is who would lose shots to Webber, and who wouldn't rather have Webber shooting a high percentage than Cuttino a low one? So Webber can still be a 20/10 guy in Houston. "In addition, his playoff record is not all that impressive, as the Freak stated." -TheCat And Mo Taylor's record is? Has he BEEN to the playoffs? Webber has hardly had a great supporting cast and would undoubtably flourish with and outside presence to take pressure of him (as any good inside player does). Again I say you've no REASON to say he is a risk to team chemistry unless you admit Cuttino will be pissed at less shots. And he is going to be giving up shots inevitably to someone, be it Griffin, a more effective Mo Taylor, Webber, or this non-existant unnamed really good center you are talking about. Your last argument is it reduces flexibility for the future. I say the Rox are GOING to spend this money. What better way than on a true superstar in the league? If we have a superstar at 4 and 1, a budding star at 3, a really good 2, and some kind of center, I think that's as good a recipe for a championship as you are going to find until Shaq retires. ------------------
LOL What part of the "offensive system" says stand there and do nothing while the shot is up? Dude you are funny. When the heck was Shaw ever retired? Now you're just making stuff up. In fact as I recall Shaw had his contract re-done in order to make the Pippen trade work. As for Rudy's "fantastic" track record I have two words. Mirsad Turkcan. Well, I actually have a lot more than two but those two will do just fine for now. Pippen was a fabulous offensive and defensive player? LMAO Oh wow... Don't blame Rudy for signing Cato to a ridiculous deal after a stupid pre-season game. Oh geeeez... Do you read this stuff before you hit submit? You really should. ------------------ First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!
Who do you thing we are going to get with our cap money that is going to stop Shaq or Duncan? Marc Jackson is not going to stop Shaq. Raef LaFrentz is not going to stop Shaq. Dikembe did not stop Shaq. Alonzo is not going to stop Shaq. Antonio Davis is going to stop Shaq? I didn't say it was to stop Shaq and Duncan. It can be Iakovos Tsakilidas as the center for the other team for all I care. We need some toughness inside to be able to contend, whether we have Webber or Taylor. It's ridiculous to say you can't stop Shaq, so lets load up on other positions. There are more teams than the Lakers, and we need to get tougher. Hakeem, Marc Jackson, Lafrentz, etc. aren't defensive monsters, but they are much improved over Cato and Collier. We can acquire any PF in the league and it still won't make us contenders until we get tougher at the 5 spot. Going with Kelvin Cato and Jason Collier may be fine to get you some wins in the regular season and to get you to the playoffs, but come May you'll need somebody willing to throw their body around, get the tough rebounds, and defend at that 5 spot if you want to have a chance, no matter who we have at the 4. ------------------ EDDIE, EDDIE, EDDIE!!! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
It seems like the majority of the BBS is in my corner right now... perhaps you need to take a closer look at what you post. Shaw hadn't played in the NBA for two seasons, or at least one and a half, when we traded for him. He was on the Blazer IR, and never got off the bench. He was released after we got him, and continued on with his normal life. He acted as someone retired, and showed no desire to play basketball until he got a call from Phil Jackson. You have two words called Mircad Turkcan? I have two words for you: 18th pick. Post a list of all the 18th picks in history, and we'll see just how good of a player you're supposed to get from that spot. Pippen was indeed a fabulous offensive and defensive player. Don't let your bias against him take away your objectivity. Pop in a tape from the days he and MJ played together in the Finals. Offenisvely, he could take his man off the dribble, post him up, shoot the open 3's, and defensively he could lock up almost anyone. P.S.-- If my thoughts were as ridiculous and offbase as you say they are, then why are you the only person on the BBS attacking me about them? If what I'm saying is so crazy, then everybody should be on me about it, right? ------------------ EDDIE, EDDIE, EDDIE!!! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited June 29, 2001).]
We can all agree that Webber and Taylor are good PFs. Webber is obviously better, if not every team would be chasing Mo. And, it looks like Rudy wants to keep the core together and I kinda see his point, especially since Webber hasn't made one visit to Houston. But I think Rudy was a little premature in making this decision. July 1 was the day we could officially talk to him and seeing several things happen lately would have probably helped him sign here. One being that his good friend J. Williams got traded so now he'll be left with a bunch of foreign players that barely speak a lick of english. I'm sure they'll be having soul food at Webbs house every weekend. Another point being made could be us trading for Giffin demonstrated Rudy's commiment to making a solid playoff quality team. Webber would have recognized that immediately, and although we call them all stars, the only true all star on the team was Dream. Cat and Francis are only recognized as good young NBA players around the league. Adding Webber now would be alot easier than tring to add someone of his quality later because they'll be more established then. If we do keep the core together then we need interior help cause Taylor can't do it all himself, Dream(if he returns)wil be 38 or 39. Both he and Cato are gonna spend their usual time on IR. That leaves us with Collier, KT, and Mo on the inside. Sound familiar? The new 3's will help some but they are rookies with Grffin at only 19,so we should have some cap for a player like Marc Jackson or Jerome Williams. We still have work to do. ------------------
Cat, I think you're being silly. Enforcers are not high priced players, so getting one at the 5 is irrelevant to the money we spend on Webber. We could draft someone to throw their body around. The Bulls had crappy centers, the Pistons had crappy centers, Kareem was hardly an enforcer/physical presence in the paint for the Lakers (maybe in the 70s but not the 80s)...should i go on? Who was the Supersonics center? The 75-76 Celts didn't have a great center. Hence, a center who is one dimensional (ie defensive only "someone to throw their body around) is not mutually exclusive with spending our money on Webber. It seems hard to justify giving our excess cap money to get a thug instead of an all-star when we should be able to get both. Since this is the last argument you are clinging to against getting Webber, I hope now you'll give Rudy the green light. BTW: unlike whats his name, I don't think YOU are ridiculous and I am not attacking you, so please don't take it that way. ------------------
This day and time, I don't think you can get an enforcer type for less than 5 million... it would be nice, but I don't think it can happen. P.S.-- I'm not clinging to this as a last argument in any way-- I still believe Mo is better in team chemistry, won't demand as many touches, will get better, and I don't think Webber is all that great of a clutch player. However, there are sometimes that you just have to agree to disagree, and I think this is one of those cases. I went to the enforcer bit as another reason to support keeping Mo, hoping it could make you see the logic behind it. However, we obviously disagree with it, so let's just see how everything plays out. ------------------ EDDIE, EDDIE, EDDIE!!! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
If the majority of this BBS thinks like you do then they need some help. You SAID Shaw was retired at the time. You were wrong, AGAIN. Pippen is one of THE most overrated players in recent times. This is a very common opinion which apparently you have yet to hear. You seem to latch on to those type players and defend them for some ungodly reason. As for the 18th pick, how about Rashard Lewis? Gee you'd think being a hometown player, he wouldn't have been too much of a secret but I guess Rudy was too busy watching tapes from Turkey to notice poor little Rashard Lewis in his own backyard. How many minutes did Turkcan play for Houston again? Zero right? This one move alone qualifies as ineptitude. Other NBA GM's at least did not have the luxury of being able to watch Lewis in their own backyard, what is Rudy's excuse? That guy from Turkey was just too good to pass up I guess. Your opinions are crazy, the only problem is that you've been spewing them for so damn long that people just don't bother with them anymore. ------------------ First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!
Fair enough. Let me say that with the Bibby trade, IMHO I think Webber is not coming to Houston anyway. As such, re-signing Mo Taylor is a good move. I would like to know what center you think we should target (leaving this argument behind)? Here's hoping for the best for the Rockets. ------------------
The only reason Cat says we have to have a strong 5 is because he's looking for a way to fit softie Mo Taylor into the mix. The truth is that the 5 position is very short in quality while the 4 position has great quality. It would be easier for the team to get a great 4 to go with a solid 5 then to get a great 5 to go with Mo Taylor. It's all part of the ploy to prop softie Mo. ------------------ First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!
If the majority of this BBS thinks like you do then they need some help. You SAID Shaw was retired at the time. You were wrong, AGAIN. Retired, not in the NBA, same difference. He hadn't played in two seasons and was riding the IR, living at home. Maybe it's not technically retired, but it's about the same thing. If you consider that being wrong, them fine, I'm wrong. As far as Rashard Lewis goes, have you ever heard of Terence Morris? We essentially got Morris for the pick that we could've gotten Rashard. Wait until you see how Morris turns out. Your opinions are crazy, the only problem is that you've been spewing them for so damn long that people just don't bother with them anymore. So is this all one big conspiracy? Whenever people agree with me, which when I post lately has been very often in several cases, are they just doing it for the sake of not wanting to bother me? Is this whole BBS a conspiracy now to keep me from posting? Somehow I doubt that. You don't need to be speaking for everyone else, at all. I find it very amusing that you say (or at least imply) that people feel the same way you do about me, and yet no one on this entire BBS has voiced it in this thread or any other thread. Hmm... ------------------ EDDIE, EDDIE, EDDIE!!! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
I'm not looking for a great 5.. I'm looking for a solid 5. We don't have either under contract right now, and if we get Webber, we probably won't be able to. ------------------ EDDIE, EDDIE, EDDIE!!! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
Rudy seems to agree with me on the defense bit too, so he does help us in that area I believe. Name one time that Rudy has ever said a negative thing about the abilities of one of his players. He doesn't; he always talks up all of his players. Did you ever hear him say that Barkley was a bad defender? What Rudy says publicly and what he really believes are not neccessarily the same. However, there is one area that is just as or more important from role players than defense and rebounding, and that is chemistry. You know he fits in so well here, the players love him, he loves Houston, and he works very hard. Guys who fit in that well chemistry wise are hard to find, so I would prefer to not let him go. Webber wouldn't fit in here? He's already friends with Franchise. He's been really well liked everywhere he's played. He's still really good friends with most his ex-teammates. Can you name any teammates that Webber didn't get along with? Chemistry is great, but not at the cost of talent. And to be honest, I still think with Webber we would still need that defender or rebounder in the middle. Why another rebounder? If Griffin can average anything close to double figures, then he and Webber and Cato would outrebound the Spurs front line. But you give away all your capspace for years to get him, and we are still too soft inside How are we giving away our cap space for years? If we sign Webber, we'd be at the cap. When Walt comes off the books next year, we'd be under the cap again. I guess it all comes down to how much will Taylor command. If he'll sign for $4M to $5M, then you could possibly go out and sign another player. If, however, he wants $7M to $8M, then you're not going to be able to get an much with the remaining money (it's too close to the amount of the midlevel exception). If you want to argue Taylor at $5M vs Webber at $12.8M, then ok. But if it's Taylor at $8M vs Webber at $12.8M, that's a no brainer. Cat, how much would you resign Taylor for? ------------------ [This message has been edited by aelliott (edited June 29, 2001).]
