Griffin is a stud- Even more so than Francis I would compare his abilities at his position coming out with Dream's abilities at his position coming out. He will start- he's too good. Forget the 19 yr. old deal- he will progress faster than kobe and garnett. Simply because he can play defense, rebound and block shots. It is his defense that will separate him. (Remember a skinny kid named Akeem blocking shots and hustling on D his rookie season) I think griffin is more of a D stopper than garnett- I think this is what makes him special- He can score inside/outside, but his offense will come more in 2-3 yrs. Ask anyone who watched him play and they will tell you he has a special shotblocking talent much like dream. By the way they are very much the same size as rookies. Dream- 6'10 1/2" Griffin- 6' 10" ------------------
There's no shame in that. We need MORE sites devoted to Mo ------------------ Founding Father of the Refs Suck Club
I don't really have too much of a Webber slant when I make comments like Griffin will be the 5th option. I just want to help people realistically see what Griffin's gonna bring to us next year (and maybe beyond). He's not like Tim Duncan from a couple of years ago, giving the Spurs instant championship contender status. He'll be a rookie. Who knows, he may contend for rookie of the year. But I won't elevate his status higher than that of Mo's, that's for sure. Honestly, it seems to me, if you're gonna make Eddie Griffin a star on the Rockets, the person who most likely assumes a role-player status is Mobley. Remember in 94 when Maxwell was our 2nd-star type guy, and then in 95 we take Drexler, and Maxwell couldn't handle it? I hope something like that doesn't happen with Mobley. I imagine Mobley will become a clutch offensive producer who can nail the shots, or create his own shots, but won't necessarily become some sort of all-star. Prove me wrong, Mobley!!! ------------------ Founding Father of the Refs Suck Club
Griffin is NOWHERE near as athletic as Hakeem was, and nowhere near as good as Hakeem was. ------------------
Griffin is NOWHERE near as athletic as Hakeem was, and nowhere near as good as Hakeem was. I take it you haven't seen Griffin play that much... his skills may not be to Dream's level, but his athletism is incredible. I won't say he's better there than Hakeem, but to say he's nowhere near it shows you're really underestimating Eddie, or overestimating Dream. P.S.-- The site is now updated with the info from the Chronicle story. ------------------ EDDIE, EDDIE, EDDIE!!! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited June 29, 2001).]
Cat, You constantly use the Lakers as your example against getting Webber. I think you are forgetting that Francis/Mobley/Griffin does not a Shaq/Kobe make. Hence your analogy is inherently flawed and inapplicable to the Rockets current situation. Webber is one of the Top Three (maybe Top Five) players in the game. To pass on him (though it looks more and more like a non-option anyway) is silly. Especially when MoTay is not as good offensively (demanding doubles) nor defensively (block/rebounding). ------------------
I think you are forgetting that Francis/Mobley/Griffin does not a Shaq/Kobe make. Hence your analogy is inherently flawed and inapplicable to the Rockets current situation. If you let them grow, that trio could be as dominant. We are in no position to say right now that they can't dominate the way Shaq and Kobe did in the postseason this year. I know it seems hard to believe right now, but they have the potential to be very dominant. We can go back through any team in history and do this though. The Spurs in '99, the Bulls, the Rockets, etc. You need 2-3 stars to be successful these days in the NBA. The Rockets, in their long range plans, see Griffin as that 3rd star. They did not draft him to be a role player. Whenever teams acquire that 2nd or 3rd star, there is a reason that they go for all the role players and not go all out for free agent stars. We have enough go to guys as it is. You're much better off surrounding them with players who fit in well with chemistry and serve needs than you are going for another star who will command touch after touch. ------------------ EDDIE, EDDIE, EDDIE!!! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited June 29, 2001).]
Webber is definitely not in the top 3. I would much rather have the following. Shaq Duncan Kobe Iverson McGrady Garnett He is good but is he going to take us over the top. I just don't think webber is a good fit and he will tie up a lot of money for a long time. I also question his character. I just don't think he has what it takes to get over the hump. I think he is one of those players that finds a way to lose just like Jordan is one of those players that just finds a way to win. ------------------
I agree that Rocks do not need Chris Webber, because we still will not beat the Lakers and if your not playing for the championship, your playing for the fans. The last time I looked, Chris Webber does not play great defense either and gets a lot more shots than Mo Taylor. I do agree that he is a much better rebounder than Mo and I expect Steve to get in Mo's face this year if he doesn't reboung. I really like Griffin at the 3 spot to prevent teams from posting up Shandon. In addition, Shandon plays better as a sub in the Rocks system. In addition, there is no way we will beat the Lakers next even thought Derek Fisher broke his foot again and will be out 4 to 6 months. I say we let Hakeem walk and move forward with the quick/young squad, which must grow together. Chemistry is very important and the reason why the Rocks won two (2) straight titles. ------------------
Mo Taylor is an above average defender my ass. That post by the Cat is a classic example of what I'm talking about. His rebounding has more to do with his style... LOL. What style is that? The can't play no defense or rebound to save your life style? Mo Taylor gives 110% all the time, that's why he often disappears from the face of the earth after the first quarter. Geeez... Webber is a better defender, better rebounder, better scorer, better ball handler, pretty much better everything. ------------------ First the Sopranos and now Eddie Griffin... thank you New Jersey!
For the record, MoTay is a good fit for the current Rockets team. He is a solid defender at the 4 (tho "above average" is stretching it). His rebounding weakness is somewhat masked by the fact that the rest of the starting lineup are all going to be above-average in that department (assuming we keep Hakeem or replace him with Marc Jackson or Antonio Davis). Still, let's say we don't sign Hakeem to a new contract, or he gets hurt again next season (what are the odds?). Expecting our 19-year-old new small forward to carry the entire load inside is a tall task. The team could really use another post-up and rebounding weapon for the next few seasons, and beyond. ------------------ I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip that I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis.
He and Webber are pretty comparable on the defensive end, actually. This is the classic kind of post I'm accustomed to as well... Mo bashers know that he doesn't rebound that well, so they overexaggerate other areas of his game to make him sound bad. His rebounding problems are about about style and positioning-- not effort. He is working his butt off out there. And as far as disappearing after the first quarter-- that could never be Steve and Cat's fault for not getting him the ball right? It's unbelievable. They are the guards, they need to distribute, and when Mo doesn't get enough touches to score it's automatically his fault because of the treatment Steve gets around here. Steve could have a wide open layup to win the championship, and if he missed it, I'm sure half of you would forget all about it and blame Cuttino or Mo for something. P.S. We can argue all day about Mo Taylor and Chris Webber if you want, but it's fairly obvious if you read the papers what the experts Rudy and CD think, and they're in my corner on this one... and they have a pretty damn good track record. ------------------ EDDIE, EDDIE, EDDIE!!! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited June 29, 2001).]
Yeah, I always wonder why a guy who scores 8-12 points in the first quarter doesn't even get to touch the ball in the next 2 quarters. It's like the strategy is to work Mo and then let the other guys get their chance. Why can't we more evenly distribute the touches in each quarter??? ------------------ Founding Father of the Refs Suck Club
"But he's only 19" "He may not work out" "He's not going to give us anything this year" There is no room for this kind of thought. If the Rockets thought this, they wouldn't have just traded 3 first-round picks for the guy. What you are asking the Rockets to do now is second-guess the decision they just made. Why would any team do that? The Cat is absolutely right, and I don't really understand all the opposition. Just read Jeff's thread "This isn't an All-Star team". Besides, Webber is a proven playoff choker. If you want to stockpile talent at the max level, I would think you would want some proven playoff success if you're looking at a 9-year vet, especially when he's going to be influencing all these young guys. Do you really want to surround Griffin with a guy who's afraid of Shaq and Duncan? What kind of influence is that?
First- Obviously Griffin is not the player Hakeem was (in prime)- The point is he is all about pro-POTENTIAL right now, however he brings the same POTENTIAL to the table at his position (SF/PR) that Hakeem did at center, Jordan did at guard, Bird did at SF. He is just very talented- if that translates to superstar FINE if not... our bad. Second- Its one thing to draft a guy because he had the statistics in college- but every so often there are special players who have tons of ability- ie. kobe, garnett, hakeem, iverson, jordan, bird, francis- who have the skills to come in and start as a rookie, BUT just because they have the talent doesn't guarantee a starting spot- that depends on situation, team, attitude, fundementals etc. Griffin is that kind of talent(POTENTIALLY) I side with THE CAT- Mo T is a fit for our chemistry plus he is young and he can play an important ROLE on a team that COULD be built on 2 stars FRANCIS/GRIFFIN This is all hypothetical (the word potential is necessary but overused)- but I believe as the Rockets see Griffin's talent up close they will give him the same chance to be our future as they have given Stevie I think rocket fans will look back at this draft as the turn around point for our next championship! ------------------
My opinion... If we get Webber, yea! If not, we are just as well of resigning Mo, Dream, and Moochie. Also, I dont think Griffin will ever, this year or in five years, become a true low post player. He will become more of a McGrady/Marion type as he has been compared to already. So we will still need, eventually, some more low post players. But on this team, I say that is where the role players should fit in. We need someone like a Ervin Johnson (he can suck it up sometimes but he brings all he's got every night) or a Raef LaFrentz, in my mind. ------------------ I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
Cat, I would agree that Griffin and Franchise can be All-NBA caliber players. I don't think Cat is however. Just because you can avg 20 ppg does mean you are a superstar. And don't get me wrong, I like Mobley, but I think it isn't fair to say he could be a Kobe/Shaq type force. He hasn't done anything to justify even thinking he has that potential. You'd need you to say you think Mobley is/can be a Kobe/Shaq to get past this. Webber fills a current weakness of the Rockets. Mainly interior offense and defense. You argue that he is going to need touches, but he'll be taking some of those from MoTaylor (whose widely acclaimed best trait is his offense) and some of those from Cat (with which he will shoot a higher percentage vis-a-vis Cat = more scored points for the Rockets). His inside scoring is also preferrable since it will = less transition opportunities for the opposition. Also, he provides a mismatch against the Lakers (since no one can match up with Shaq we know we have to find other mismatches) at their relatively weak PF slot. As for the Championship Theory (2-3 stars) you repeatedly depend on: Hakeem was the sole star on the '94 team. Thomas was the lone superstar of the Bad Boys. Duncan the lone star (no pun intended) of the Spurs (Robinson at 15 ppg and 8 rbds is no longer a star). The Lakers of the 80s had 3+ stars (Magic, Worthy, Kareem) as did Boston (Bird, McHale, Parish). All of which proves teams with varying mixes of stars can win it all. Besides, the main reason teams do not stock multiple stars is MONEY #1 and MAYBE chemistry issues (ie trading A Dantley for M Aguirre; Eddie Jones b/c he played same positions as Kobe), but there is no reason anyone has put forward to believe CWebb would not get along with Francis, Cat, or Griffin unless they were selfishly putting thier shot count above giving the team the best chance to win. If you get a chance to get one of the best players in the game, and he fits your weaknesses, you do it unless you have a quantifiable reason not to. In this case you don't. ------------------
Mo could be a great role player for us at the PF spot, and cap room like we have right now comes along very seldom. We are much better off using it on good role players to fill needs than we are getting another star. Cat, The idea of surrounding star players with role players is sound. The problem is that the role players need to fill the roles that the team is otherwise lacking. If I'm going to build around Francis, Mobley and Griffin, then the role players need to provide defense, rebounding and shot blocking. Taylor doesn't provide those things (I know you think he's an above average defender, but hardly anyone else does). If you're looking two years down the road, as you say, then realize that a Griffin, Cato, Taylor front line is still a weak rebounding frontcourt (even if Griffin can be a double digit rebounder). As you stated, cap space like this doesn't come along often, so shouldn't we take advantage of it now and either make a run at Webber or go after role players that will provide the things that we're still missing? Personally, I'm hoping that this latest story about our disinterest in Webber is just a ploy to pressure Webber into making a decision. If we have a shot at Webber, I can't imagine that we'd pass it up. Rudy and Co. have always placed a premium on star players. I don't think it would be a Portland situtation. The problems in Portland were about playing time not shots. That's because they were 11 or 12 deep. We wouldn't have that problem with Webber here, our starters would get plenty of minutes. The other issue in Portland was that they traded for a bunch of older players on the downside of their careers, again not an issue for us. I also agree that the LA comparision isn't valid. Shaq is by far the most dominant player in the league. Kobe is the best 2 guard in the league (sorry AI) and one of the top 5 or 6 players in the league. No matter how much Mobley, Francis and Griffin improve, I can pretty much guarentee you the they'll never be as dominant as Shaq/Kobe.If we're to overtake LA, we're going to need as much frontcourt firepower as we can get. If we can get Webber, then do it. Worse case, we can always trade him later. It's not like he's not going to have any trade value in a year or two. ------------------
Timing, did you actually go to any Rocket's games this year? I'm not saying this to try and be rude, but before I actually went I thought the same thing about Mo. He can't rebound, doesnt try hard, sucks at everything kinda attitude towards him. Then, when I got to go to some games (about 15 or so in total), my opinion of Mo changed completely. First off, the guy was easily the hardest working player on the court, on a day-by-day basis. He definetly gave 110% or more of himself every game. His dissapearance after the first quarter was more of a result of Rudy's substitution pattern that anything else. Second, his defense is not too bad. In any case, man to man, he is as good as Webber, who is routinely smoked by the likes of Tim Duncan when the Kings played the Spurs. As far as team defense goes, he just doesnt have the height or wingspan to be that enforcer in the middle. His rebounding still does suck, but the Rocket's management knows that and are working for ways to get the TEAM to rebound better as a whole. In my opinion, Mo Taylor Better outside shooter Better ball-handler Likes Houston and wants to be a Rocket Has a strong desire to win Brings it 150% every night Webber Better inside scorer (when he wants to be) Better rebounder Better defender. Doesn't know where he wants to play Likes basketball but wants to be with his friends Has been known to make critical mistakes or dissapear in big-game situations Webber is definetly the better player, but other factors go into. As I said above though, its 6 in one, half a dozen in the other. Everything is a crapshoot in the NBA. ------------------ I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
Rocket sources are saying they arenot going for Webber- they are going for their own- The reasons may be simple 1. Don't want to risk losing their own to get Webber and then lose out on Webber 2. Grooming Griffin in the long run for the PF- and having Webber long term at the PF 3. Need a center to replace Dream this year or next- Center becomes there next BIG hole to fill. Rockets just need a serviceable center and at this time they have NO ONE They may be looking at the next 2 yrs of free agency to address the center position because that may be the last piece to the Championship puzzle. 4. I think the Rockets are making their decisions based upon a long term view of what will bring this franchise a championship 5. Chris Webber will not play center- He hates the defensive matchups that can wear him down, guarding Shaq is bad enough, but just having to play constantly in the low post leaning against heavy guys is something he has said he does not want to do. He is a power forward. ------------------
